Driving With the Back Side

[UTMan9]

I'm having trouble bringing my backside into the brace instead of around it, and I've read every relevant forum and watched every relevant video I can find. I think I'm stuck trying to figure out the correct sequence of the plant foot hitting the ground (toes first), crushing the can, everting the rear foot ("the move"), and Feldberg's hip thrust. I'm also a little confused on how to crush the can. Is pushing off the rear foot to bring the weight forward bringing the plant heel down ("riding the bull"), or does the plant heel need to be down to trap the momentum from "the move?"

To sum it up:

1. What is the correct sequence of the plant foot hitting the ground, crushing the can, everting the rear foot, and the Feldburg hip thrust?

2. How does the weight shift from back to front? Pushing off the rear foot shifts the weight to the front, or the front heel plants to "shift into the brace" and trap the momentum from "the move"?

Thanks in advance! I've learned a ton from DGCR, and now I'm really trying to put the pieces together. For reference, I'm throwing 300' consistently on golf lines on flat ground with Saints, Mavericks, and Flows. I'm trying to get to 400' before the summer.

 

[sidewinder22]

There's a bunch of overlap between drills. Drills don't teach you how to throw per say. They teach an exaggerated feeling you need to feel in your throw and incorporate into your own throw.

I would say the heel plant traps the momentum of the move and funnels the energy up your body as you stand up and rotate. Your rear foot push drives the front heel into the plant.

It's easier to think about shifting your balance rather than weight. Weight is a byproduct your balance and posture and momentum moving over gravity. You need to figure out how to maintain your dynamic posture/balance to the throw and finish upright.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133319

 

[UTMan9]

So if the heel plant traps the momentum of "the move," then I crush the can before rear foot eversion? And where does the Feldberg hip thrust factor into the equation? That's the best way that I've seen to bring my balance forward because if I just evert my rear foot, then I end up toppling over the plant leg. Maybe I'm not striding far enough?

 

[sidewinder22]

So if the heel plant traps the momentum of "the move," then I crush the can before rear foot eversion? And where does the Feldberg hip thrust factor into the equation? That's the best way that I've seen to bring my balance forward because if I just evert my rear foot, then I end up toppling over the plant leg. Maybe I'm not striding far enough?

Backwards, eversion is the momentum crushing the can. Think of your heels trading places, rear heel is going up/forward while front is coming down, being driven down forward from momentum and gravity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMC6OYzb3oY&t=3m8s

Hip thrust is a feeling thing on the front leg. The rear leg drives the hips/pelvis forward ahead of the upper body. So you should be coming into the plant on an angle tilted away from target like / which is dynamic upright balance to your momentum. So when you extend the front leg you stand upright in the finish.

How far you need to stride is totally dependent on you and how fast you are moving. If you feel like you have to rush, then you are off balance. When you are in balance you can do it slow motion. I think you have a fundamental balance/posture issue which causes you topple over.

Your rear foot drives your pelvis forward - not your shoulders or arm/disc - these need to lag behind the hip(they may be moving along for the ride with the hip while lagging behind) Your front leg then drives the pelvis into rotation as your weight shifts from you extending the leg/not collapsing. (Note - Your leg can be collapsing or not appear to move, while you are extending or resisting falling into the ground and braking your fall using your extension muscles).

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[UTMan9]

I got a chance to do some dry swings in my living room, and I think I fit the pieces together. Now how does it connect to the shoulders rotating to actually use the momentum to eject the disc? I've yet to feel the "uncorking" sensation that I've seen described so much. Everything still feels partially active, and I've seen a lot of posts saying basically that if the lower half is correct, the upper half basically takes care of itself passively.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

So if the heel plant traps the momentum of "the move," then I crush the can before rear foot eversion? And where does the Feldberg hip thrust factor into the equation? That's the best way that I've seen to bring my balance forward because if I just evert my rear foot, then I end up toppling over the plant leg. Maybe I'm not striding far enough?

Have you actually crushed a can?
Many many many of us have gone through the motions and have thought we produced the feeling we are looking for. Need to crush a can to really feel the balance in the shift. For me it was a giant aha moment and about 3 years later than it should have been.

Then what I've done recently as far as the rear heal up/evert plant heal down is use one of those squishy balance discs. Like a pancakes exercise ball. You really have to collapse the rear leg in to feel the weight push into that pad in the same manner as crushing a can. I think HUB has a video where he does this with regular pillows. My main point is actually crushing a can a couple times in order to feel what those other drills need to accomplish is a big step.

Also from some random pro drives I've watched a standstill throw the rear heal up plant heal down looks like a connected fulcrum. As full speed hop and Xstep the pros I've wanted to emulate the rear foot is deweighted before the plant heal is coming down but this is super duper slow motion to see.

 

[sidewinder22]

I got a chance to do some dry swings in my living room, and I think I fit the pieces together. Now how does it connect to the shoulders rotating to actually use the momentum to eject the disc? I've yet to feel the "uncorking" sensation that I've seen described so much. Everything still feels partially active, and I've seen a lot of posts saying basically that if the lower half is correct, the upper half basically takes care of itself passively.

When you correctly sequence the backswing and lag the arm/disc behind your hips like it's a door frame or sledgehammer, it's automatic that you start springing forward. When your front foot braces hard enough(often when heel hits) it's like releasing the string on a compound bow/arrow.

 

[UTMan9]

I have not actually crushed a can before. Maybe that feeling will show me to brace hard enough to release the bow string? Whenever I have been swinging, I can naturally get my shoulders to turn about 90 degrees from the target (facing 9 o'clock, if the target is 12), but everything after that really becomes active for me. Is that where driving the elbow comes into play? Or should everything above the hips just be about keeping the disc on the right plane?

 

[sidewinder22]

I have not actually crushed a can before. Maybe that feeling will show me to brace hard enough to release the bow string? Whenever I have been swinging, I can naturally get my shoulders to turn about 90 degrees from the target (facing 9 o'clock, if the target is 12), but everything after that really becomes active for me. Is that where driving the elbow comes into play? Or should everything above the hips just be about keeping the disc on the right plane?

Yes, the can makes a difference.

If you are talking about 90 degrees in the backswing, and not being able to turn further back then either, your rear foot needs to turn further back, and/or you have poor hip mobility or some other kind of balance/posture issue restricting your rear hip.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133543

This is zero elbow drive, only elbow bend and extend:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133733

 

[UTMan9]

I meant 90 degrees after my current lower body rotation in the actual drive. I get my torso 180 degrees and hips about 120 in the backswing. With the elbow bend and extend, is it an active extension? Cotracting the triceps to extend the elbow? I've seen the analogy of the backfist punch, and that implies active extension to me, but as I said earlier, I've also read that everything above the hip is passive.

 

[sidewinder22]

I meant 90 degrees after my current lower body rotation in the actual drive. I get my torso 180 degrees and hips about 120 in the backswing. With the elbow bend and extend, is it an active extension? Cotracting the triceps to extend the elbow? I've seen the analogy of the backfist punch, and that implies active extension to me, but as I said earlier, I've also read that everything above the hip is passive.

Is a boxer's jab active or passive? I think of it as assisting momentum, it's a blend of passive and active, like turbo boosting yourself on a swing set.

 

[UTMan9]

I threw a couple discs while taking my dog out this afternoon, and I came up with a mental cue for the throw. I'm wondering if I'm on the right track. It's toss, push, thrust, contract. Toss is the backswing, push is the rear foot eversion that causes(?) the plant heel to drop, thrust is the Feldberg hip thrust, and contract is contracting the tricep to extend the lower arm and eject the disc. I hit about 250' with a Getaway that rode hyzer the whole time. I'm wondering if I'm on the right track before trying to commit that to muscle memory and getting my upper body in sync with it.

P.S. I got some Dr. Pepper cans today to actually crush a can, and I'm hoping to get a video later this afternoon.

 

[slowplastic]

I think you may be having too much separation. Your best bet is to post video of yourself in the analysis section. It's hard to know just from description of your "feel" without seeing what you do.

But if you try to turn the shoulders back too far of the hips, you can disconnect at the abdomen it feels like. The separation happens naturally...so backswing in sequence hips first. Then try to move forward together to the plant. The hips WILL go first, but don't fire them and leave the shoulders behind. Also the hip thrust/Feldberg thing happens after you catch your weight, if you are balanced the hips will clear like this. Don't try to pop/extend them early or anything. It's after the weight has settled.

It honestly feels way more together than it looks on video. Don't try to push off the rear foot, fire hips, leave shoulders back, etc. It will really cap your distance potential and strain some muscles if you mess up slightly.

 

[UTMan9]

Haven't gotten to crush a can yet, but here is a video of my field work. After the first few throws, I dropped the X-Step to really try and feel the lower body.

https://youtu.be/UYfX5BfLiB8

 

[sidewinder22]

You are swaying to the left/off balance in your stride and planting too staggered closed. This is much easier to see from behind the tee view - your head is to the right of your foot during the swing, instead of centered/stacked right over your foot. You can see your front knee collapsing past your ankle because you aren't balanced/stacked in dynamic upright on your front leg. Your CoG is too far to the right of your foot, like you are in a seated position rather than athletic squatted position. I would advise looking at The Hips Thread, you are moving like the AM vs the PRO in those.

 

[UTMan9]

Will crushing the can properly help my knee to not rotate out past my ankle? How do I keep my CoG between my legs?

 

[sidewinder22]

Will crushing the can properly help my knee to not rotate out past my ankle? How do I keep my CoG between my legs?

Staying in Dynamic Athletic Upright Posture and Balance is everything as you move. Balance on rear leg in stride and balance on front leg during swing/finish. If you stagger your feet less then your CoG should be able to be centered on either leg very easily. The more you stagger and your feet and widen your stance the more athletic ninja you must be to move your CoG and remain in balance.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133543

 

[slowplastic]

Another way of putting it, is you are shifting "in front" by pushing your body left/forward with the rear leg. Rather than moving your balance onto the front leg, catching balance, then starting the rotation from the front leg/hip.

This is why your torso tips forward and your rear foot stays on the ground too long...because you are pushing your torso/upper body with the left leg to power the throw.

One leg drill, filming it from side and behind, will show you how to be WAY more forward/upright/stacked on the right leg before starting any throwing motion.

 

[sidewinder22]

You have both heels on the ground simultaneously, so your rear foot is too late pushing off, and you are weight back still during the throw. Your rear foot is pushing your upper body over, instead of driving your hip and all your weight/balance forward leading the throw.

In your SS your rear foot is spinning out forward as you plant instead of your instep driving your rear heel up/forward with all your weight. That spin also causes you plant more staggered closed without your weight moving forward.