Jacob Courtis' form & Gossage's interesting comment on it

[Sheep]

I see that. I'm not one to let someone assume false motives of another person without being called out for it. Seems like he may have been burned by someone else in the past and put you in the same boat.

Sheep has stated he wants to attack ideas and he let the personal attack slip in.

I'm sure he will appreciate the bluntness of being called out for it as that is his modus oporandi.

Don't put words in my mouth.

 

[koiyote]

Don't put words in my mouth.

Which words did I put in your mouth? I'm ready and willing to apologize if I misconstrued your words.

Seems like he may have been burned by someone else in the past and put you in the same boat.

But Chris is also the guy I'd never tell my idea's too, because he just seems like the guy who randomly will make a video or insta post about it claiming it as his idea.

There are quite a few video's online of youtube coaches teaching something I've shared with them privately, or in group chats where they are making money on it now, and I got 0 credit.

Sheep has stated he wants to attack ideas and he let the personal attack slip in.

I'm sure my attitude doesn't help at times because of my willingness to say how I feel in a very blunt fashion. It's not meant as awful attacks on others as a person, but I'm attacking their process or idea.

While I am blunt and straightforward. I'll call your stupid idea stupid, because its stupid.

I'm sure he will appreciate the bluntness of being called out for it as that is his modus oporandi.

I don't think any of my statements were illogical jumps or straw men, but I am willing to move with ample evidence. If you intend your remarks to be read differently then maybe your approach and language should be examined.

I am not immune to this myself and it was via conversations like this that I've become a bit softer in my language and approach having realized I am/was often the issue.

If your goal is to discuss ideas I can see why you're having a hard time. You're abrasive. If you want other kids to play with you it is probably wise to stop swinging the stick. If you want to keep the stick, don't expect to be invited to the birthday party.

I will reiterate once more: I was the kid that enjoyed beating the others with the stick (and it still comes out sometimes).

Genuinely, I write this in hopes that you will be introspective and because I care.

-from one blunt man to another

 

[Brychanus]

FWIW, when I spoke with him, I found Chris Taylor to be nothing but cordial and clear and generous with his time.

He was willing to discuss some of the more controversial differences in opinion about DG BH form and I wouldn't hesitate to reach out to him the next time I want to sift through his perspective about what's on my mind.

I should also say that in general, every time I talk to someone who has had some role in coaching (broadly speaking) over a long period of time has something to contribute. In the end I might not be surprised to discover that a lot of the apparent controversies are really just "a distinction without a difference." Others are very real and people will continue to disagree for a while, probably.

Wasn't this thread about Courtis & Gossage? Here's a nice Courtis one from ~6 years ago that gives you a contrast with his modern form. He's fantastic whippin' that plastic. FB link won't embed, sorry.

 

[Kennets]

As one that like to dish out shit talk myself - we absolutely need to do better in here. That's the reason I spend my time here and not on Facebook groups - in here we can discuss ideas and how other guys present them, in a civil manner. (Ish..)

Chris Taylor might not "teach" in a way that reasonate with me, but he has always been kind and respectful towards me when I've been asking stupid questions and not understanding stuff. Not ONCE has he asked for money (same goes with Brychanus and sidewinder btw) and without having to many in-depth conversations with him, he doesn't strike me as one that "steals stuff" or haves an "agenda".

Topics in here gets derailed lately and it's a shame, cause there's a ton of good info getting lost in the shit storm.

 

[HyzerRoc]

Wasn't this thread about Courtis & Gossage? Here's a nice Courtis one from ~6 years ago that gives you a contrast with his modern form. He's fantastic whippin' that plastic. FB link won't embed, sorry.

He looks a lot like a young Drew Gibson with his off arm swinging around wildly like that.



I uploaded it to youtube because I wanted to go through the frames.



Sorry for the bad quality, download and reupload took its toll on the video.

What do you think about his throwing arm movement in relation to accuracy here? I noticed that I have some arm flailing going on in my throw as well and I think the flailing contributes to inaccuracy as small mistakes will result in wildly different release points.

What also stands out to me is that he clearly produces a ton of weight on his plant foot here, just compressing into it during the transition.

 

[Brychanus]

He looks a lot like a young Drew Gibson with his off arm swinging around wildly like that.



I uploaded it to youtube because I wanted to go through the frames.

View attachment 335213

Sorry for the bad quality, download and reupload took its toll on the video.

What do you think about his throwing arm movement in relation to accuracy here? I noticed that I have some arm flailing going on in my throw as well and I think the flailing contributes to inaccuracy as small mistakes will result in wildly different release points.

What also stands out to me is that he clearly produces a ton of weight on his plant foot here, just compressing into it during the transition.

Big difference between flailing and a toned down swedish lever arm.

Looks like mechanically part of what works in Courtis' younger move is similar to any of GG, Wiggins, young Gibson.

Wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them tone down the arm or switch to the more common modern move seeking control (though recall Eveliina has great drive power and accuracy, GG too relying on hyzer, etc.)

I did mess with the lever arm for a bit and the power potential was obvious when I got it to sync up. I had enough trouble with my balance already so I switched back to a more toned down move. But definitely learned something from it.

 

[HyzerRoc]

Big difference between flailing and a toned down swedish lever arm.[COLOR=var(--text)]


Wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them tone down the arm or switch to the more common modern move seeking control (though recall Eveliina has great drive power and accuracy, GG too relying on hyzer, etc.)

To the second point, I think it is noticeable that in the original video the OP posted that the disc moves on a much straighter line. I know it isn't straight, but it moves less side to side than in his early form.

To the first point: yeah, his arm is actually controlled and not flailing like a noodle.

I wonder how much of that is him arming it - consciously pulling the arm - vs. him just whipping it by loading it and then whip it around by moving his shoulder while keeping it loose.



I gotta say im skeptical of the arming it cue as thinking about the arm has never done me any good and so far the journed to better form has involved thinkign less about it and just let it do its thing.

 

[koiyote]

To the second point, I think it is noticeable that in the original video the OP posted that the disc moves on a much straighter line. I know it isn't straight, but it moves less side to side than in his early form.

To the first point: yeah, his arm is actually controlled and not flailing like a noodle.

I wonder how much of that is him arming it - consciously pulling the arm - vs. him just whipping it by loading it and then whip it around by moving his shoulder while keeping it loose.



I gotta say im skeptical of the arming it cue as thinking about the arm has never done me any good and so far the journed to better form has involved thinkign less about it and just let it do its thing.

Isn't whipping via loading versus driving the elbow forward the same motion just to varying degrees?

Specifically, if you take a pocket that is being maintained at/above 90° the upper arm is actively being used to not collapse the pocket/hug yourself before the whip out, right?

Now take pros who say, 100% believe, and look like they are actively driving the elbow forward to not only maintain but grow the pocket angle. Isn't that using the upper arm in a similar fashion but to a greater extent? Which would also lead to a less exaggerated curve in the swing path due to increased linear drive focus with the elbow?

Edit: misused the word flailing

 

[HyzerRoc]

Isn't whipping via loading versus driving the elbow forward the same motion just to varying degrees?


Now take pros who say, 100% believe, and look like they are actively driving the elbow forward to not only maintain but grow the pocket angle. Isn't that using the upper arm in a similar fashion but to a greater extent? Which would also lead to a less exaggerated curve in the swing path due to increased linear drive focus with the elbow?

I think there is at least two parts to this: 1 - what is actually going on and 2 - what it feels like, what I cue to get the correct motion.

For 2 - thinking about the arm has resulted in me strong arming the disc and I get noticeably more power the more I can just whip and keep the arm loose.

For 1 - I think it is mostly about shoulder protraction (retraction will invariably result in bad rounding). When loading the disc behind you like in the door frame position while keeping the shoulder protracted the disc is gonna whip into the pocket and out of it without rounding going on.

However, maybe something else is going on, thus the question to which degree he might be driving the elbow forward consciously (arming it) vs. just keeping it loose and it whipping around. The screenshot below shows Courtis in the doorframe position, do you think he drives the elbow forward from that position or is he whipping it while keeping his arm loose?

 

[koiyote]

I think there is at least two parts to this: 1 - what is actually going on and 2 - what it feels like, what I cue to get the correct motion.

For 2 - thinking about the arm has resulted in me strong arming the disc and I get noticeably more power the more I can just whip and keep the arm loose.

For 1 - I think it is mostly about shoulder protraction (retraction will invariably result in bad rounding). When loading the disc behind you like in the door frame position while keeping the shoulder protracted the disc is gonna whip into the pocket and out of it without rounding going on.

However, maybe something else is going on, thus the question to which degree he might be driving the elbow forward consciously (arming it) vs. just keeping it loose and it whipping around. The screenshot below shows Courtis in the doorframe position, do you think he drives the elbow forward from that position or is he whipping it while keeping his arm loose?

View attachment 335223

I think from that doorframe position you have two options.

Option 1: to have the shoulder protracted creating more or less a "unit" with the upper arm that is fairly rigid to avoid collapsing the pocket when the shoulders uncoil. This means the lower arm can be left loose to allow the swing in created by the angular momentum generated.

Option 2: instead of creating/maintaining a more rigid upper arm/shoulder unit you protract the scapula immediately (to elbow forward/abduct the upper arm).

in reality these are not mutually exclusive from a biomechanics standpoint but, as you were alluding to, FEEL totally different and use entirely different mental cues.

Personally I have experimented with both to moderate success (high 60s mph wise) and agree that the load the whip variant is easier to gain easy speed and feels easier on the body as I can leverage some lag. With the elbow drive version I feel the speed ceiling is higher but takes a bit more toll on the body at higher speeds.

I would imagine cupcake is doing closer to option 2.

Such is my opinion anyways.

 

[Brychanus]

To the second point, I think it is noticeable that in the original video the OP posted that the disc moves on a much straighter line. I know it isn't straight, but it moves less side to side than in his early form.

To the first point: yeah, his arm is actually controlled and not flailing like a noodle.

I wonder how much of that is him arming it - consciously pulling the arm - vs. him just whipping it by loading it and then whip it around by moving his shoulder while keeping it loose.



I gotta say im skeptical of the arming it cue as thinking about the arm has never done me any good and so far the journed to better form has involved thinkign less about it and just let it do its thing.

Isn't whipping via loading versus driving the elbow forward the same motion just to varying degrees?

Specifically, if you take a pocket that is being maintained at/above 90° the upper arm is actively being used to not collapse the pocket/hug yourself before the whip out, right?

Now take pros who say, 100% believe, and look like they are actively driving the elbow forward to not only maintain but grow the pocket angle. Isn't that using the upper arm in a similar fashion but to a greater extent? Which would also lead to a less exaggerated curve in the swing path due to increased linear drive focus with the elbow?

Edit: misused the word flailing

I think there is at least two parts to this: 1 - what is actually going on and 2 - what it feels like, what I cue to get the correct motion.

For 2 - thinking about the arm has resulted in me strong arming the disc and I get noticeably more power the more I can just whip and keep the arm loose.

For 1 - I think it is mostly about shoulder protraction (retraction will invariably result in bad rounding). When loading the disc behind you like in the door frame position while keeping the shoulder protracted the disc is gonna whip into the pocket and out of it without rounding going on.

However, maybe something else is going on, thus the question to which degree he might be driving the elbow forward consciously (arming it) vs. just keeping it loose and it whipping around. The screenshot below shows Courtis in the doorframe position, do you think he drives the elbow forward from that position or is he whipping it while keeping his arm loose?

View attachment 335223

I think from that doorframe position you have two options.

Option 1: to have the shoulder protracted creating more or less a "unit" with the upper arm that is fairly rigid to avoid collapsing the pocket when the shoulders uncoil. This means the lower arm can be left loose to allow the swing in created by the angular momentum generated.

Option 2: instead of creating/maintaining a more rigid upper arm/shoulder unit you protract the scapula immediately (to elbow forward/abduct the upper arm).

in reality these are not mutually exclusive from a biomechanics standpoint but, as you were alluding to, FEEL totally different and use entirely different mental cues.

Personally I have experimented with both to moderate success (high 60s mph wise) and agree that the load the whip variant is easier to gain easy speed and feels easier on the body as I can leverage some lag. With the elbow drive version I feel the speed ceiling is higher but takes a bit more toll on the body at higher speeds.

I would imagine cupcake is doing closer to option 2.

Such is my opinion anyways.

Koiyote and I appear to both be blaspheming filthy moderates.

I have also played with the two options he described and would agree on both counts (including in terms of ease on the body and power implications).

In general, you benefit from good overall posture control and sequence otherwise.

I stopped getting so confused about the role of the arm after working with and always share this video. I stopped needing to worry about passive/active and could manipulate it much more thoroughly, including in the two style extremes Koiyote mentioned.



I think "strong armers" are more common out there, but on the other hand, there really are people who get too noodly. Some of them still have a really hard time with the Clement way of learning it. In those cases, you can use other tricks and work at greater extremes like koiyote is saying, and most people settle down in one way or another over time (and tons and tons of practice). This is one of the areas where I think people can hang onto every word to their detriment.

 

[HyzerRoc]

Option 1: to have the shoulder protracted creating more or less a "unit" with the upper arm that is fairly rigid to avoid collapsing the pocket when the shoulders uncoil. This means the lower arm can be left loose to allow the swing in created by the angular momentum generated.

Option 2: instead of creating/maintaining a more rigid upper arm/shoulder unit you protract the scapula immediately (to elbow forward/abduct the upper arm).

Yeah I can see that in the development from the earlier form of Courtis (Option 1) to the later form of him (Option 2). I thought you were gonna pull out Will Schusterick as he seems to be the biggest promoter of just pulling through after getting into position.

 

[CoachChris]

IMO, the term "arming" is used to describe too many varied motions. With proper deep pocket timing, there is much less inertia on the arm and body and the arm movement can feel almost weightless. The load (or feel of "arming") on the system happens when the elbow begins extending early due to miss timed shoulder/horizontal abduction timing adding considerable inertia to the upper arm. (Think ice skaters extending their arms to slow their rotation.) With proper upper arm timing, the upper arm is in a position to be accelerated by the shoulder rotation instead of lagging behind and causing early elbow extension. Try not to conflate a perfect power pocket elbow position with the negative connotation of "arming", they are two completely different animals.

 

[Brychanus]

^This makes sense to me, the only thing I want to add is that the kind of "arming/strongarming" I was referring to is what occurs when the player is not using momentum or their legs or weight shift etc., so the primary vehicle for power is muscular effort from the arm.

In that case I would rush to the common ground and motion to stop talking about "arming" or "strongarming" altogether if some consensus could be reached. Talking about the role of the arm in relation to other parts of form as you suggest is one way to do it.

 

[koiyote]

Yeah I can see that in the development from the earlier form of Courtis (Option 1) to the later form of him (Option 2).

This is something Brachanus' series on late stage versus early stage form turned me onto and he mentioned elsewhere. I think you either see throwers either start in Option 1 and stay there, Start in Option 2 and stay there, or start in Option 1 and move to Option 2 over time.

It's interesting to me that there are (seemingly) no instances of players starting in Option 2 and moving to Option 1.

A few hypotheses on this:
1. As an underdeveloped player (younger or less athletic) it might be necessary to learn how to utilize more leverage early on when your limbs are small and discs are large/heavy relatively.
2. It may be a more natural way of learning fundamental timing pieces and then more arm is added in later when arm strength/speed becomes an option
3. Option 2 may have other benefits such as accuracy and ability to more easily manipulate release and launch angles that make them transition to a heavier use of the arm
4. It lets them throw farther.

I thought you were gonna pull out Will Schusterick as he seems to be the biggest promoter of just pulling through after getting into position.

Don't tempt me

Koiyote and I appear to both be blaspheming filthy moderates.

You have bestowed upon me the highest honor.

 

[koiyote]

IMO, the term "arming" is used to describe too many varied motions. With proper deep pocket timing, there is much less inertia on the arm and body and the arm movement can feel almost weightless. The load (or feel of "arming") on the system happens when the elbow begins extending early due to miss timed shoulder/horizontal abduction timing adding considerable inertia to the upper arm. (Think ice skaters extending their arms to slow their rotation.) With proper upper arm timing, the upper arm is in a position to be accelerated by the shoulder rotation instead of lagging behind and causing early elbow extension. Try not to conflate a perfect power pocket elbow position with the negative connotation of "arming", they are two completely different animals.

Move to redefine "arming" and "muscling" the disc as what you have to do if you collapse the pocket.

Say "aye"

More seriously, there is obviously use of the word "arming" the disc that has a negative connotation but I believe I read somewhere that your motion capture study revealed that the scapula does retract on power throwers? Which seems like using the arm.

I think if we vilify the word arm we throw the proverbial baby out with the bath water and lead people towards a collapsed pocket.

Thoughts?

 

[koiyote]

In that case I would rush to the common ground and motion to stop talking about "arming" or "strongarming" altogether if some consensus could be reached. Talking about the role of the arm in relation to other parts of form as you suggest is one way to do it.

Oops. I was writing it at the same time as you.

Aye.

 

[Brychanus]

Can't throw without your arm. Agree it's important to be more specific, and would just emphasize that a lot of "arming" issues people talk about or use that word for are related to or caused by upstream issues.

To avoid saying "arming" henceforth can just talk about sequencing/posturing/timing/rhythm more specific components etc. instead I think per above.

I strongly suspect some people will continue to use that language and there's no use spending energy to "police" it in any case if the action(s) can be trained.

 

[Sheep]

To the second point, I think it is noticeable that in the original video the OP posted that the disc moves on a much straighter line. I know it isn't straight, but it moves less side to side than in his early form.

To the first point: yeah, his arm is actually controlled and not flailing like a noodle.

I wonder how much of that is him arming it - consciously pulling the arm - vs. him just whipping it by loading it and then whip it around by moving his shoulder while keeping it loose.



I gotta say im skeptical of the arming it cue as thinking about the arm has never done me any good and so far the journed to better form has involved thinkign less about it and just let it do its thing.

Part of it is learning to assist in the swing better.

But using the "arming it" que is not good if you ask me.

There are ways to do it, but you're going to hurt yourself over time.

Thats my thought anyways.
I'm over josh's video's, most of it just seems like "for clicks, I need more content" at this point.

 

[Sheep]

Can't throw without your arm. Agree it's important to be more specific, and would just emphasize that a lot of "arming" issues people talk about or use that word for are related to or caused by upstream issues.

To avoid saying "arming" henceforth can just talk about sequencing/posturing/timing/rhythm more specific components etc. instead I think per above.

I strongly suspect some people will continue to use that language and there's no use spending energy to "police" it in any case if the action(s) can be trained.

Ehh, I'll continue to police language on poor descriptors that will get people hurt.

If people wanna use poor language to describe things, then... Whatever.

The language we should use should be less "hit things with stick" and more eloquent to try and get our brain to engage our body properly.

So, what we run into is this issue with trying to get people to connect with the message and understand. So we say things like "you need to arm the disc more."

What that actually TELLS your brain is "throw hard with arm."
But what you mean is "we need to assist the kinetic chain during the swing."

Well, which one makes more sense to say? well, the first one, but it gives the wrong ques.
So we need to actually talk about better ways to say it, and.. From what I can tell, nobody is really interested but me. So whatever.


I'm coming to find what people actually NEED to be doing is the beto drill more though. Because it will teach you to properly assist your swing in getting the disc out in a powerful fashion. Otherwise were going to do these really crappy pull through late release style throws. Which do generate a lot of power. But.. It's bad.

And when you really do watch these big dogs throw. they are not roudning into the power. They are presenting their arm in a fasion to sling it out from their chest in a powerful motion while they use fast twitch muscles to accelerate the disc into the hit.