Enough with the alternate pins!!

[DavidSauls]

Like many things, bi-directional tees could work in some places. Probably not on many wooded courses, where the transition path from a basket to the next tee is often a narrow trail. But I've used a few on "safari" type layouts.

Our private course has two overlapping layouts, with a few shared baskets or tees. It's low-traffic, so no problem; though at tournaments we only play one or the other at a time (and mark off the holes that don't apply). I suspect that some courses could do something like this, except open or close layouts every week or two. At the expense of extra baskets and teepads, but requiring no more land.

I once played a course with reversed fairways that played both ways, simultaneously. 9 holes out, then reverse and play 9 holes back, with tees and baskets at either end. It was a lousy course, but not because of that. It could work -- some places (and with low traffic).

*

I think the gold standard is dual tees (not just long/short), and multiple permanent targets, giving the players options instead of forcing them (as rotating baskets do). With the significant drawback of cost. And the limitation, like everything else, that not all land is suitable for this; some property features are best used for a single hole design.

 

[davetherocketguy]

In ball golf, the pins can be moved around on the green to give a hole a slightly different finish.
Disc golf should be the same. If your alternate pins are more than 20 or 30 feet apart, they suck.
Alternate pins that can change the distance on a hole by more than 50 feet are just stupid, and more than 100 are absolutely asinine.
How about make 18 good holes before figuring out dozens of alternate ways to play.
Also, if you have more than one alternate pin, then that hole sucks and needs to be completely redesigned.
Sorry, but I wasted a day off today playing a ****ty course and this was just one of its many problems.

Must be rough wasting a whole day playing disc golf. Here I am working 7 days/week. Had to leave work early on Sunday for my one and only round this week.

:|

 

[oldmandiscer]

I would classify multiple pins in two categories. One good and one bad.

Good - An amateur beginner friendly pitch and putt. Having multiple pin positions can make the course have several different layouts and well, it's basically a bad course already (think 2-3 star out of 5) so having multiple pins is not going to be a big deal. You can probably see most of the baskets from the tee. Basically you are not detracting from the original concept since it was mid level at best to start with. It is only adding some variety. Good for locals.

Bad - A pro level course with much longer wooded fairways. Ideally the course would be designed for one purpose and one excellent hole location. Now adding multiple pins is going to potentially detract from the original design and purpose. Think 4-5 rated courses where most Pro A tiers should be played. Course may be a wish list for many players and they want to try the course as they see it on video coverage. So that may detract out of towers as well if they show up and it's all shorter for instance.

 

[DavidSauls]

That illuminates, in part, a difference in preferences between locals and travelers. Just as locals aren't concerned about signage and navigation issues, they may prefer the variety of moving baskets over the always-best-possible pin placements. Travelers want to find their way without hassle, know where they're throwing, and play the best version of the course with their limited opportunities.

 

[Billipo]

Playing out and back not new concept. Dare I say it, first ball golf course played that way. Basically playing each hole forward and backwards.

Unrelated article attached, which brings out this concept. Article reprinted with permission.

 

[thrembo]

Playing out and back not new concept. Dare I say it, first ball golf course played that way. Basically playing each hole forward and backwards.

Unrelated article attached, which brings out this concept. Article reprinted with permission.

I have played at least two courses that do this (out and back in with the same baskets). Didn't care for it. I noted in my review of one of them "wear a hard hat when playing and practice yelling FORE!"

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=6477&mode=ci

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=624

 

[dysmike]

The most local course for me is a 9 holer played both ways. It also has multiple tee and pin positions. Some of the pin position changes are drastically different. Most of those are better than the original pin position.

The other courses in the area are far enough away, that it's generally not worth the drive for the course for regular play. Sometimes, you just make the best of what you have.

 

[MiketheGoalie]

I'm a little confused by some of the reasoning behind the "course isn't set up the same as last time"/repeat challenge angle and its latest iteration "I saw this awesome layout on Youtube and want to play it." Unless I'm missing something, if you like pin position C because it's the one you played last time, you can still play it even if the basket has been moved to position D. It's not like there are armed thugs preventing you from chasing C's green if that's what you want to do. Courses don't stop maintaining a pin location or otherwise make it unplayable.

If you care enough about your game to want the barometer of improvement that comes from repeat plays on the same layout, you're likely honest enough with yourself to know if you have a makeable putt on the C position after your approach shot. Hell, if you're super anal, step that **** off from the C pin position and go putt on the basket at D. If that approach is untenable, play the placement currently in rotation AND PLAY YOUR FAVORITE! This isn't rocket surgery.

 

[tahoe]

Alternate cup positions on a ball golf green allows the surrounding grass to recover from foot traffic and also avoids creation of a four foot diameter low spot where everyone steps to retrieve their ball from the cup.

Alternate basket placements on a disc golf course reduces prolonged soil compaction and allows the unused pin placement area some time to recover. This is even more important on wooded courses where foot traffic first exposes then kills tree root systems. Further separation, if possible, is required when you consider that tree root systems are as large or larger than their canopy.

On older courses where baskets never move I call the surrounding area the "brown" rather than the "green" because there is nothing left but dirt, mud or exposed gravel, etc. around the basket.

There's an article coming up in the next Disc Golfer Mag (mid-Dec issue) on ball golf v disc golf courses and sustainability. The author, Dave McCarty has been covering the environmental movement since its modern inception in the early 70's. I was asked to contribute... I chose to emphasize the importance of protecting landscapes from erosion & compaction BEFORE opening for play (widespread trampling). It is extremely difficult to reverse the adverse effects (forest ecology principles) of trampling later. Kudos to Timber for getting real on this subject! Time to change the language from "multiple pins" (points) to "multiple green complexes" (undulating planes) which are designed to be armored to be resilient to the flow of play (foot-traffic) based on the hole design, target level player and accompanying trail network to respect slope contours...

 

[DavidSauls]

I'm a little confused by some of the reasoning behind the "course isn't set up the same as last time"/repeat challenge angle and its latest iteration "I saw this awesome layout on Youtube and want to play it." Unless I'm missing something, if you like pin position C because it's the one you played last time, you can still play it even if the basket has been moved to position D. It's not like there are armed thugs preventing you from chasing C's green if that's what you want to do. Courses don't stop maintaining a pin location or otherwise make it unplayable.

If you care enough about your game to want the barometer of improvement that comes from repeat plays on the same layout, you're likely honest enough with yourself to know if you have a makeable putt on the C position after your approach shot. Hell, if you're super anal, step that **** off from the C pin position and go putt on the basket at D. If that approach is untenable, play the placement currently in rotation AND PLAY YOUR FAVORITE! This isn't rocket surgery.

If playing to a preferred green without a basket is just as good as playing to it with a basket, we can take the next step and dispense with baskets, altogether.

 

[Jay Dub]

If playing to a preferred green without a basket is just as good as playing to it with a basket, we can take the next step and dispense with baskets, altogether.

We should start a thread for this...




....I'm kidding.

 

[lee76007]

The only problem I have about pin positions, is that the two course's I play that have them, don't use them. Their both one basket courses.

Course #1 I've played for a year now, and have never seen the baskets rotated. The alternate pin positions I've seen in passing, would make some holes harder, and some a little easier,

Course #2 a Championship course I've played 10 months now and there are some pin positions that have not been used, some haven't been rotated since the one time they were rotated 9 months ago, a few were just rotated the first time last month. Their is one hole that seems to be rotated every other month? Not sure why just that one, and not the others? There is a pin position that has not been used, that is across a ravine and gully, thru trees that would be fun and brutal. I always like to be challenged on the course.

Is this common or do other courses rotated more frequently? It would be nice to play the variety, and doesn't seem difficult to move the baskets.

 

[MiketheGoalie]

If playing to a preferred green without a basket is just as good as playing to it with a basket, we can take the next step and dispense with baskets, altogether.

Surprised it took this long to go the hyperbole route. I never said it was just as good, I said it was a manageable way to still play the layout you prefer. I suppose the alternative is to cater to the "multiple pins = bad" crowd exclusively in course design and never have the variety inherent in the design? Or cater only to travelers with straightforward layouts that never change so they don't have to do extra walking? That's the ticket!

As I said previously, the issue is SIGNAGE, not multiple pins.

 

[blazerico]

Not according to our own course page.

Are we looking at the same thing? River City #14 goes to K and has two tees
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/media.php?id=2597&mode=media&view=&hole=&page=2#

 

[DavidSauls]

Surprised it took this long to go the hyperbole route. I never said it was just as good, I said it was a manageable way to still play the layout you prefer. I suppose the alternative is to cater to the "multiple pins = bad" crowd exclusively in course design and never have the variety inherent in the design? Or cater only to travelers with straightforward layouts that never change so they don't have to do extra walking? That's the ticket!

As I said previously, the issue is SIGNAGE, not multiple pins.

I can go from 0 to Hyperbole in about 3 seconds flat.

My cruising answer is that there is no one right answer. It's all tradeoffs. Though if you're going with multiple pin placements, then yes, good signage makes a world of difference.

 

[glassila]

My course has 2 basket locations for each hole which get switched out every 5-6 weeks. A few prominent signs indicate if the baskets are in the red or blue position. I tried red and blue bolts to indicate pin locations and found this method was a lot better.
For about ½ the holes red is more difficult and for ½ the holes blue is more difficult. (I'm not a fan of courses that go from all short positions, to all long.)
The total length difference over 27 holes is less than 100 feet.

 

[Innova63]

I know that Vallarta-Ast DGC at Token Creek is rotated by color, Red, White or Blue. Once you know where the first basket is, the whole round of 27 is set. Unfortunately that means the whole course is set short, medium or long. I believe that even the practice basket is moved as well. The other County Park course was designed by the same people so I think it is set up the same way.

 

[discgeez]

Baskets at Seneca are rotated on a regular basis. The main reason for this is to reduce wear and tear and to control erosion. If the basket's too short for you, play a longer tee pad.

 

[joecoin]

I predict:

Someday, baskets will be replaced by holograms.

You decide which layout you want to play and activate the holographic force field on that green, via the chip in your head.

 

[thrembo]

Are we looking at the same thing? River City #14 goes to K and has two tees
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/media.php?id=2597&mode=media&view=&hole=&page=2#

This is Morley hole 14 for comparison.