Excessive time called at DGPT finals

[seedlings]

As far as Nikko's putting goes, this latest tournament NW Arkansas Open, he's done very well to reign in the excessive obsessive putt routine. He even looks like a better putter. Getting called out at the skins match and in the tourney may have helped his game.

 

[Nale72]

this is an interesting point. other than golf, are there any major professional sports that allow the players themselves to make the calls? off the top of my head there's golf, and if we go a few steps down maybe you could count ultimate frisbee, although both sports have rules officials/observers that actually do stuff

Well, in theory golf players are allowed to make calls themselves, but even if they do they often double check with a rules official before the score card is turned in if there is any doubt and depending on the situation they are even obligated to. But this is mostly if the ruling is very simple and black and white, at least unless we are talking about club tournaments.

In most cases, as soon as there are the slightest disagreement or a situation isn't crystal clear (or even if it is crystal clear, but they see a rules official nearby), they will call for a rules official. Not only on the largest tours, but also on every level where there is prize money involved. And in all non-amateur (and larger amateur tournaments) there will be rules officials driving around monitoring pace of play and give out warnings and penalties for that.

 

[Steve West]

Well, in theory golf players are allowed to make calls themselves, but even if they do they often double check with a rules official before the score card is turned in if there is any doubt and depending on the situation they are even obligated to. But this is mostly if the ruling is very simple and black and white, at least unless we are talking about club tournaments.

In most cases, as soon as there are the slightest disagreement or a situation isn't crystal clear (or even if it is crystal clear, but they see a rules official nearby), they will call for a rules official. Not only on the largest tours, but also on every level where there is prize money involved. And in all non-amateur (and larger amateur tournaments) there will be rules officials driving around monitoring pace of play and give out warnings and penalties for that.

In disc golf, players can consult with an official or TD (if nearby) and provisional throws allow the players to make sure of any ruling for which there is disagreement.

 

[dmoore1998]

this is an interesting point. other than golf, are there any major professional sports that allow the players themselves to make the calls? off the top of my head there's golf, and if we go a few steps down maybe you could count ultimate frisbee, although both sports have rules officials/observers that actually do stuff

And golf also isn't exactly the same. You're supposed to call your OWN penalties, on yourself, in golf. But at major events there's a rules official on the course, typically with the group, and they've gone so far as to use video replay to call violations without the players themselves being involved. Golf is kind of a mixed-breed thing, you aren't calling it on other players really, just yourself.

There is no "I'm assigning you a penalty fellow player" in golf. And golfers are not the ones deciding when play is too slow either...slow play penalties are completely out of the hands of the players.

 

[robdeforge]

And golf also isn't exactly the same. You're supposed to call your OWN penalties, on yourself, in golf. But at major events there's a rules official on the course, typically with the group, and they've gone so far as to use video replay to call violations without the players themselves being involved. Golf is kind of a mixed-breed thing, you aren't calling it on other players really, just yourself.

There is no "I'm assigning you a penalty fellow player" in golf. And golfers are not the ones deciding when play is too slow either...slow play penalties are completely out of the hands of the players.

I think the self policing aspect is something that disc golf should really focus on. Don't make it the responsibility of others to tell you when you did something wrong, but make it YOUR responsibility to make sure you are playing within the rules. There are some instances where making a call on yourself would be difficult (fairway run ups, etc.) but to me the vast majority of rules violations are made with the full knowledge of the person breaking the rule

 

[BillFleming]

I think the self policing aspect is something that disc golf should really focus on. Don't make it the responsibility of others to tell you when you did something wrong, but make it YOUR responsibility to make sure you are playing within the rules. There are some instances where making a call on yourself would be difficult (fairway run ups, etc.) but to me the vast majority of rules violations are made with the full knowledge of the person breaking the rule

Here's a weird situation that happened to me during a disc golf tournament. But first, I played ball golf and am used to calling violations on myself; and taking the appropriate penalty.

Back to the disc golf situation....I called a violation on myself and was going to apply the penalty. I let my card mates know I had a violation. They said I couldn't take the penalty because they didn't see the violation and couldn't confirm it. 801.02.e was referenced:

A call made by a player for a rules violation that results in one or more penalty throws can only be enforced if the call is confirmed by another player in the group or by a Tournament Official.

So a call was made that would result in a penalty throw....but it couldn't be enforced because no one else confirmed it...EVEN THOUGH I CALLED IT ON MYSELF! That was weird.

BTW: The violation was a foot fault and I tried to explain that my foot moved my marker prior to releasing the disc (802.07.A.2 Stance).

 

[araytx]

this is an interesting point. other than golf, are there any major professional sports that allow the players themselves to make the calls? off the top of my head there's golf, and if we go a few steps down maybe you could count ultimate frisbee, although both sports have rules officials/observers that actually do stuff

In the early rounds/pre-qualifying, 3X3 Basketball (now an Olympic Sport) is self officiated.

 

[gooberau]

Watching the last round live this morning and this kid was slow again, taking way more than the allotted time. He was even walking out ahead of his lie and puffing a chalk bag to check the wind. Great player … but speed it up a little!

 

[Smigles]

Watching the last round live this morning and this kid was slow again, taking way more than the allotted time. He was even walking out ahead of his lie and puffing a chalk bag to check the wind. Great player … but speed it up a little!

He took forever on every single throw. And then took his 30 seconds to putt. Terrible.

But yeah as long as players dont call him on it, it is the Nikko situation all over again. We should make not calling rule violations a courtasy violation in itself.

 

[Steve West]

It is already a courtesy violation to fail to enforce a rule.

801.02 Enforcement
B. Players are expected to call a violation when one has clearly occurred. [...]

812 Courtesy
B. A player must:
1. Perform actions expected by the rules, [..]
2. Watch the other members of the group throw in order to ensure rules compliance and to help find discs.

Further, it can be enforced by someone in another group.

C. [...] A courtesy violation may be called or confirmed by any affected player, [...].

Not only that, but it is Player Misconduct.

3.03 Player Misconduct
B. If a player violates the above standard, the Tournament Director may opt, in their sole discretion, to issue a tournament warning for a first offense (except as specified in 3.03.C). Otherwise, the Tournament Director will immediately disqualify the player. Actions that violate this standard include, but are not limited to:
7. Overt failure or refusal to enforce the rules of disc golf during competition (see 801.02.B, Enforcement).

Which means it can be enforced by video evidence. Not only that, it can subject those players to disciplinary action.

1.12 Tournament Officials
H. Video evidence or other media is not allowed for the purpose of making rulings for sanctioned play. Such evidence can only be used to document player misconduct (as defined in 3.03). Evidence of player misconduct may be evaluated at any time by the PDGA Disciplinary Committee.

So, the players in the group, any players being affected by a non-call, the Director, and the PDGA Disciplinary Committee all could do something about players refusing to enforce a rule.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Great post Steve.

My gut tells me, other players won't call it, until they feel the consistent excessive time is throwing their rhythm off.

Maybe players have been hesitant to call him on it because of his age. If so, that might wear thin as the season goes on.

I agree with Rhatton (see post #123):
It's one thing to take a bit longer because of a tricky situation, unusual circumstances, etc. vs. it being an every shot type of thing.

IMHO, some degree of subjectivity seems appropriate. What needs to be called are ongoing violations, rather than the isolated, of all occurrences.

 

[BillFleming]

So, the players in the group, any players being affected by a non-call, the Director, and the PDGA Disciplinary Committee all could do something about players refusing to enforce a rule.

The issue is the "could" part of that. It isn't happening.

While I know video can't be used for anything but misconduct....it should be able to be used for post-round/tournament education. For example...there is lots of video of Nikko taking over 30 seconds. There is video of his temper tantrums. Post round/tournament has anyone (including the PDGA DC) let him know he was violating the rules? Has anyone let the players in Nikko's group know they are refusing to enforce rules. Especially with his temper tantrums which is misconduct and video CAN be used for that.

How about Matt Bell's bunching up of his putter? Has the PDGA DC or Rules Committee let him know that is illegal?

How about all players turning their backs on another player while they are putting?

If no one is enforcing the rules - why should anyone abide by them? Nikko has never been penalized for taking over 30 seconds....why should Gannon Buhr even care about taking less than 30 seconds?

This all trickles down to the am level and beginners....they see the coverage of the pros and go by what they do....I know people in casual league that ball up their putter for the sole reason they've seen Matt Bell do it in sanctioned tournaments, so it must be legal.

 

[robdeforge]

He took forever on every single throw. And then took his 30 seconds to putt. Terrible.

But yeah as long as players dont call him on it, it is the Nikko situation all over again. We should make not calling rule violations a courtasy violation in itself.

Watching the last round live this morning and this kid was slow again, taking way more than the allotted time. He was even walking out ahead of his lie and puffing a chalk bag to check the wind. Great player … but speed it up a little!

I decided to time him (just by counting in my head) when I noticed the same stuff as you both. I was surprised when, out of 5-10 times I did that, he never took more than 25 seconds and was usually around 20.

did you guys notice something different?

 

[Emoney]

With crowds and cameras around.....also trying to battle for the win... and trying to keep a 30 second timer in your head.... AND hope someone else in the group is doing it too so they can "second" it.... it's just too much to have to focus on for the rest of the group....or it could easily throw you off your game if you pay attention to other players too much(especially a 30 second rule)

Lots of money and careers are on the line... we have to get officials to follow these cards.... not to nitpick... but if someone is violating a rule constantly...it needs to be addressed.

 

[autocrosscrx]

I decided to time him (just by counting in my head) when I noticed the same stuff as you both. I was surprised when, out of 5-10 times I did that, he never took more than 25 seconds and was usually around 20.

did you guys notice something different?

I was working out while watching.

I was doing a workout where you do an exercise for 45 seconds, then rest 15 seconds, then move to the next one. I did three 15 minute routines.

There were a couple of times where I was about 10 seconds short of completing 2 exercises before he threw.

 

[biscoe]

I decided to time him (just by counting in my head) when I noticed the same stuff as you both. I was surprised when, out of 5-10 times I did that, he never took more than 25 seconds and was usually around 20.

did you guys notice something different?

I was counting in my head as well on pretty much all of his throws. Only a relatively small number were actually excessive and those not by much. 30 seconds is a long time. I think he likely has worked on it a bit since getting called at the DGPT Finals (by Drew iirc).

 

[Nale72]

How about Matt Bell's bunching up of his putter? Has the PDGA DC or Rules Committee let him know that is illegal? ....

....I know people in casual league that ball up their putter for the sole reason they've seen Matt Bell do it in sanctioned tournaments, so it must be legal.

I'm curious about this, which rule are you breaking when doing this? Since I Bell do this once I've always thought that was ok to do.

 

[BillFleming]

I'm curious about this, which rule are you breaking when doing this? Since I Bell do this once I've always thought that was ok to do.

There's a thread on this:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104266

And you back up my point.....people see the pros routinely do things and believe they are following the rules, so they do it themselves or believe they can.

 

[krupicka]

I'm curious about this, which rule are you breaking when doing this? Since I Bell do this once I've always thought that was ok to do.

813.01.B "A disc which has been modified after production such that its original flight characteristics have been altered is illegal,…"
8130.1.A "Discs used in play must be approved by the PDGA and meet all of the conditions set forth in the PDGA Technical Standards"
Technical Standards: All ... approved discs must have a circular, saucer-like configuration,

Folding your disc up into a ball and throwing it is illegal as clearly the original flight characteristics have been altered and it is no longer in a circular, saucer-like configuration. The disc is illegal while it is balled up. Once it is untucked and is allowed to return to it's normal shape, the disc is again legal.

 

[BillFleming]

813.01.B "A disc which has been modified after production such that its original flight characteristics have been altered is illegal,…"
8130.1.A "Discs used in play must be approved by the PDGA and meet all of the conditions set forth in the PDGA Technical Standards"
Technical Standards: All ... approved discs must have a circular, saucer-like configuration,

Folding your disc up into a ball and throwing it is illegal as clearly the original flight characteristics have been altered and it is no longer in a circular, saucer-like configuration. The disc is illegal while it is balled up. Once it is untucked and is allowed to return to it's normal shape, the disc is again legal.

To add to the above....
and for those who say that once the throw has been made the disc "returns to legal" before it comes to rest.....doesn't matter as the throw was with an illegal disc.

But I think the point about it returning to it's normal shape while in flight is what makes players think it is legal to do that.