Foot Fault 2019

[biscoe]

I'm thinking of all the overlapping circles at some events. It would look like a giant line drawing of a bubble bath.

What if we make it easier by applying the "putting" rule everywhere but the tee?

Each hole can become a series of venn diagrams with specific rules dictated by the overlapping parts.

No is the simple answer to the second part.

 

[armiller]

I don't believe the basketball analogy is quite tight enough...

I suggest you learn more about the concept of gamesmanship - it is not a deliberate rule-breaking strategy, rather it is a deliberate use of the 'slop' areas in the rules to gain an 'unfair' advantage over one's opponents. Because rules are never actually broken, no infractions are called, but it reflects a disrespectful sleazy attitude on the part of practitioners, where they place themselves and their concerns first. Most people have played with fellows like this; the fellow who makes a noise at the critical moment - consistently, always seems to be standing in your peripheral vision, moving slightly, during a putt, trash-talkers, etc. In fact, I believe that's the reason some players use headphones nowadays, to eliminate or reduce some of these distractions. So no, people should NOT use ANY method that's within the rules that is advantageous. That being said, not every round one plays is a serious competitive round; lots of things are acceptable in casual rounds with friends you are familiar with - serious competition is not the only reason we play.

Regarding the basketball comparison, I mainly refer to traveling violations and particularly at a lower level like high school with which I had experience. This violation doesn't get called a lot at the pro level, as you seem to know. The parallels I see mainly relate to releasing the ball to dribble before moving pivot foot, or violations like "up and down" during which ball must be released before planting the next foot or taking the next step.

For gamesmanship, I think I share your disdain of the flow of play or mental game methods. I have never considered jump-putt situations to apply, and I thank you for bringing it to my mind. Ultimately, though, I have always just tried to learn to follow the technical rules of the game, rules which I need to self-enforce during solo play so that my score theoretically reflects what it would be during an "official" round. My preference is for the rule-slop to be corrected by writing a good rule, i.e. fix the letter of the law. But neither the rule writers nor top level players agree on what the rule should be.

Until there is an actual study done about how many jump putts are actually illegal, I don't see any issue with the current rule. But saying that, jump putting was absolutely a consequence of the follow through rule outside the circle.

Call me a fan of pushing the circle back to 100 feet and then this discussion is a complete moot point.

That would be interesting to see the PDGA sponsor such a study. I'm not expecting it anytime soon.

 

[JoakimBL]

Just to get in a players head. We all know at least one rule Nazi that likes to remind you how close you may have come to an infraction, just to mess with you. It totally kills the vibe on the card and lets you know you're being watched, (maybe a little closer than you originally thought).

So now friendly advice to make sure your card mates doesn't end up being penalized is referred to as being a "rules nazi"? And why are you not expecting to be watched in the first place? The other players on the card are both your opponents and the referees. They should be watching that you follow the rules.

 

[JoakimBL]

That's all fine and dandy, but few if any follow them and they're not enforced. Until there are some consequences, these rules are moot. But this all just beating a dead horse and I too would like to see a larger putting circle along with making step and jump putting illegal.

If that is your view, then changing the rules is a waste of time. And you probably don't play a lot of sanctioned tournaments, so why do you care?

 

[Keller]

So now friendly advice to make sure your card mates doesn't end up being penalized is referred to as being a "rules nazi"? And why are you not expecting to be watched in the first place? The other players on the card are both your opponents and the referees. They should be watching that you follow the rules.

Way to twist around what I meant.:doh:

Find another target to piss on.

 

[BrotherDave]

"Players will enforce the rules because it's against the rules for the players to not enforce the rules" is one of the silliest aspects of disc golf. It's like saying if we just make crime illegal nobody will commit crime.

The only real problem with jump putts is that some people are butt hurt about it. There are lots of subjective rules being violated routinely but it's just the nefarious jump-putts that need to be addressed. Nobody is clamoring for a measuring stick to make sure guys aren't going past a meter away from OB or calling straddle putters for that off-foot being a little closer to the pin than is legal. I think extending putting rules is a horrible overreaction to jump-putting. We'd lose awkward jump-putters like Hokom but we'd also lose smooth jump-putters like Dickerson. The game would be worse off without the smooth Dickerson jump-putts. We shouldn't reduce what aesthetics we have just to placate some people that aren't coordinated enough to walk and chew bubble gum at the same time.

 

[Streets]

PDGA Rules:

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

PDGA Rules:

spoken like a true gamesman, barbossa...

 

[Casey 1988]

"Players will enforce the rules because it's against the rules for the players to not enforce the rules" is one of the silliest aspects of disc golf. It's like saying if we just make crime illegal nobody will commit crime.

The only real problem with jump putts is that some people are butt hurt about it. There are lots of subjective rules being violated routinely but it's just the nefarious jump-putts that need to be addressed. Nobody is clamoring for a measuring stick to make sure guys aren't going past a meter away from OB or calling straddle putters for that off-foot being a little closer to the pin than is legal. I think extending putting rules is a horrible overreaction to jump-putting. We'd lose awkward jump-putters like Hokom but we'd also lose smooth jump-putters like Dickerson. The game would be worse off without the smooth Dickerson jump-putts. We shouldn't reduce what aesthetics we have just to placate some people that aren't coordinated enough to walk and chew bubble gum at the same time.

Also would loose the step putters like AJ Risley or was it Calvin Heimburg who are using the Jump putt rule to do a step over the lie/marker putt that is legal by knowing the rules.

 

[robdeforge]

The only real problem with jump putts is that some people are butt hurt about it.

that's weird, I thought I didn't like jump putts because they are illegal about 50% of the time. thanks for clearing that up!

 

[BrotherDave]

that's weird, I thought I didn't like jump putts because they are illegal about 50% of the time. thanks for clearing that up!

Throw me some hard stats on that number there, Bob. I'll let you dislike jump putts all you want if you back it up with actual reasons. opcorn:

 

[robdeforge]

Throw me some hard stats on that number there, Bob. I'll let you dislike jump putts all you want if you back it up with actual reasons. opcorn:

I wasn't aware I needed your permission to dislike something

 

[BogeyNoMore]

The only real problem with jump putts is that some people are butt hurt about it.

I respectfully disagree. The "problem" with jump putts is that it's too damned difficult to be sure whether (or not) a players foot was still in contact with the ground behind their lie (i.e. a legal stance) when they released the disc.

Stated another way, the problem lies in humans' inability to correctly officiate their legality on an individual basis, which for some players, may happen repeatedly throughout a round.

In no way do I think players who seem like they're frequently in violation consciously trying to gain an advantage by releasing the disc milliseconds after their foot has left the ground. I don't think we're capable of that on a consistent basis.

But it doesn't change the fact that it's often damned tough to determine what happens and when, in real time.

While that minimal a distance isn't a realistic advantage, we really can't have players releasing closer than their lie. Because then you open up the can of worms that would be, "How far beyond one's lie can they release the disc?"

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

I respectfully disagree. The "problem" with jump putts is that it's too damned difficult to be sure whether (or not) a players foot was still in contact with the ground behind their lie (i.e. a legal stance) when they released the disc.

In no way do I think players who seem like they're frequently in violation consciously trying to gain an advantage by releasing the disc milliseconds after their foot has left the ground. I don't think we're capable of that on a consistent basis.

This was addressed previously, this grey area, and its implications, is known and acknowledged fairly universally. Knowing that, a player who jump-putts, successfully or no, is automatically a gamesman, i.e.: consciously trying to gain an advantage via a grey area in the rules. This style was invented because players wished to gain an advantage. He becomes a gamesman through the intent and decision to jump-putt. The act is then routinely rationalized, using a variety of logical fallacies. We do not however judge intent or decisions in the court of disc golf; we only judge the act or we let things slide...

 

[Emoney]

Jump and step putts are here to stay. They wont make the circle bigger and they allow us to follow through our shots leading up to the circle.

Only way to get rid of them is to not allow any follow through on any shot. That will never happen due to injury concerns.

I suggest that people take advantage of this gray area, as pros have done.


Plus everyone here seems to get-off on the drama it causes

 

[BrotherDave]

I wasn't aware I needed your permission to dislike something

No but if you want to change something you should have a much better reason to change it than your personal anecdotal fallacy.

I respectfully disagree. The "problem" with jump putts is that it's too damned difficult to be sure whether (or not) a players foot was still in contact with the ground behind their lie (i.e. a legal stance) when they released the disc.

Stated another way, the problem lies in humans' inability to correctly officiate their legality on an individual basis, which for some players, may happen repeatedly throughout a round.

In no way do I think players who seem like they're frequently in violation consciously trying to gain an advantage by releasing the disc milliseconds after their foot has left the ground. I don't think we're capable of that on a consistent basis.

But it doesn't change the fact that it's often damned tough to determine what happens and when, in real time.

While that minimal a distance isn't a realistic advantage, we really can't have players releasing closer than their lie. Because then you open up the can of worms that would be, "How far beyond one's lie can they release the disc?"

I'm not arguing that though, I agree. What you say would be true IF this was the only bang-bang/ambiguous facet of the game that routinely comes into being. It isn't by a long shot. There are several grey areas that are routinely abused that no one really cares about. Who is really farthest out? Is your off-foot no closer to the target than your lie when you straddle putt/do a patent pending? Did you throw within the time limit? Did you take you take your lie in that bush with minimal moving of that bush? Did you take more than a meter from that OB line you landed near? Did your putter come to rest fully before you snatched it out on that tap-in? Are all your discs legal weight? Etc. There are tons of grey areas that nobody really gets too argumentative about that can unfairly give a player a slight advantage but for some reason jumpers get people's knickers in a twist. We wouldn't be arguing about this incessantly if people cared about jumpers as little as they care about 1 meter OB relief.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Yeah, I wish jump putters would just shrivel up and die. They're a damned abomination to the game. :|

 

[Jay Dub]

I'd love to have a putting contest with a jump putter. Them using most of the muscles in their body to project a 175 gram aerodynamically designed disc 50 - 100 feet and me using minimal muscles in my old non-athletic body to do the same thing.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

I'd love to have a putting contest with a jump putter. Them using most of the muscles in their body to project a 175 gram aerodynamically designed disc 50 - 100 feet and me using minimal muscles in my old non-athletic body to do the same thing.

I honestly have nothing against it, but I agree that it seems like a lot of moving parts/wasted energy. Maybe I'm just not that coordinated. :\

All I know is my chances of sinking long putts are better when I kinda take a bit of an upshot type of throw, perhaps with a step. But some people jump putt pretty freakin' well.

Whatever works for you.

Just don't make me go to instant replay to see if you had a legal stance. :wall:

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

Here's a thought experiment:

Say the PDGA implements a new discretionary rule, where a TD may determine what constitutes a 'green' via course markings. All shots that are 'on the green' must follow the current 10-meter rules for shot-making. Greens smaller than 10 meters in diameter are prohibited.