Form critique request

[disc-golf-neil]

@Brychanus

This caught my eye with how far he looks to be over his toes, lol. Camera angle probably making it look a bit more exaggerated though.




18:59

 

[Brychanus]

I might be learning because I predicted he was throwing some kind of aggressive hyzer before I watched the shot.

Let me try this out on you.

As you know I now always look for the invisible balanced axis, and try to see if I can understand the posture & sequence in that respect.

I think Ricky's balanced axis is somewhere around the blue line at this moment (tilted back South and East toward his rear foot, and accordingly tilted toward his head North and West). I think if you go to seabas22 Inside Swing drill, the "wall" would be tilted accordingly as the yellow-orange line (I'm trying to account for camera angle, so the exact position is a little suspect. I put the alignment of the "floor" along the teepad). This would make it seem like his nose is "behind" his toes once correcting for the balance, but like you said, we could also rotate the camera angle a little bit more West and see where his nose is aligned over the toes when accounting for the balanced axis.



I think the first time I recognized this was in GG's move. His tilted balance is actually very complex/extremely dynamic and reminds me of a washing machine drum precessing around more than any other player I've studied (but in a Figure 8 pattern). Notice the "wall tilting" shown by the yellow line as GG strides. Disc is a shallow hyzer in this case (well, shallow for GG lol), showing that the balance frame is still precessing down the tee. This is part of how GG gets a lot of momentum and his full body mass into the move, probably. I can do this on my plant side but only sorta on my gimped trailing side. Also notice GG's elbow coming "through the wall" after he plants like Sidewinder mentions somewhere in his Inside swing drill.



Try to "see" the balance precessing in slow motion:



Ricky's move is distressingly good and accounts for a lot of his power, probably. Since you like to tinker and are pretty athletic, maybe see if you can find that balance in transition on hyzer.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I might be learning because I predicted he was throwing some kind of aggressive hyzer before I watched the shot.

What do you mean by aggressive hyzer? A higher spike? Because it was like 30 deg hyzer but just not at a spike height.

 

[Brychanus]

What do you mean by aggressive hyzer? A higher spike? Because it was like 30 deg hyzer but just not at a spike height.

Yes, more the 30 deg hyzer angle. My hypothesis from the stillframe was that he was on that balanced axis because Ricky is a good example of a "whole tilt" adjusting player just because I've watched him more than a lot of other pros. So I expected a hyzer release, and probably on the lower trajectory like we saw there (but I find that harder to predict and usually just analyze each shot because some players make abrupt balanced tilt adjustments as they shift into the plant).

As we've been chatting about not everyone only adjusts their whole posture since you can also move the arm etc. But you might keep looking at Ricky and see what you learn especially from his transition move!

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Yes, more the 30 deg hyzer angle. My hypothesis from the stillframe was that he was on that balanced axis because Ricky is a good example of a "whole tilt" adjusting player just because I've watched him more than a lot of other pros. So I expected a hyzer release, and probably on the lower trajectory like we saw there (but I find that harder to predict and usually just analyze each shot because some players make abrupt balanced tilt adjustments as they shift into the plant).

As we've been chatting about not everyone only adjusts their whole posture since you can also move the arm etc. But you might keep looking at Ricky and see what you learn especially from his transition move!

Oh, I read that from the opposite direction. I thought you meant learning because you were surprised about the hyzer and it made you question / learn instead of being right about the prediction as a sign that you've been learning.

 

[Brychanus]

Oh, I read that from the opposite direction. I thought you meant learning because you were surprised about the hyzer and it made you question / learn instead of being right about the prediction as a sign that you've been learning.

Oh yeah, sorry - what I've been doing recently after we had the earlier exchange that surprised me is try to see if I can pick the shot angle and trajectory for a few players just from the stillframe in transition (around the time where Ricky is there).

What I learned was that I can do it more reliably with some players than others.
-Some players seem to be "full posture" players. Those are players where I can develop a decent guess in transition most of the time (still not 100%). Their tilted axis in transition moves predictably into the plant, which is also directly related to the shot trajectory and angle.
-Some are "arm modifiers." These are players who focus on the arm, and it does appear to move somewhat independently form the posture (but still in alignment enough to work).
-Some are "transition tilters." These people may or may not also modify with the arm, but they do have a significant mid-transition balance shift. I think Barela is one of these. He also does have a few differences in his spinal motion and posture that e.g. Sidewinder has worried will catch up with him, fwiw.

You are the reason I am learning this after your experiment with Barela, so I am thankful that you had me start playing this game

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Oh yeah, sorry - what I've been doing recently after we had the earlier exchange that surprised me is try to see if I can pick the shot angle and trajectory for a few players just from the stillframe in transition (around the time where Ricky is there).

What I learned was that I can do it more reliably with some players than others.
-Some players seem to be "full posture" players. Those are players where I can develop a decent guess in transition most of the time (still not 100%). Their tilted axis in transition moves predictably into the plant, which is also directly related to the shot trajectory and angle.
-Some are "arm modifiers." These are players who focus on the arm, and it does appear to move somewhat independently form the posture (but still in alignment enough to work).
-Some are "transition tilters." These people may or may not also modify with the arm, but they do have a significant mid-transition balance shift. I think Barela is one of these. He also does have a few differences in his spinal motion and posture that e.g. Sidewinder has worried will catch up with him, fwiw.

You are the reason I am learning this after your experiment with Barela, so I am thankful that you had me start playing this game

Hah, cool.

Yeah Barela is interesting sometimes he runs up REALLY bent at the waist like that spike hyzer one, but other times he kinda looks similar but is throwing a hyzer but not spiking it high.

I remember watching Niklas really early on when I started DG and being confused about how he threw anhyzer because he starts pretty bent over like he's going to throw hyzer but then progressively transitions to a more upright posture during the runup IIRC.

 

[Brychanus]

Yeah I'm in general finding this whole "arm independence/dependence" hypothesis and the postural evolution for different players interesting. It's a crude way of thinking (on my part) but I still tend to cache most if it under the "many ways to whip it" heuristic. But the details matter and are all worth learning from too imho.

Also slightly self serving while I'm on this warpath, but if you want an interesting case study in tilts, leans, and posture, Feldy is still always fascinating because his pendulum arm kind of simplifies part of that story. The guy is always in balance, but has ridiculous control over where his balance (tilted axis) is from shot to shot. He's a good example of paradoxically "aggressive tilt" in balance that moves him forward even if he appears to be leaning away in many shots, I think. Try to "see" where you think his balance is and it may be further fun for you:

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Yeah I'm in general finding this whole "arm independence/dependence" hypothesis and the postural evolution for different players interesting. It's a crude way of thinking (on my part) but I still tend to cache most if it under the "many ways to whip it" heuristic. But the details matter and are all worth learning from too imho.

Also slightly self serving while I'm on this warpath, but if you want an interesting case study in tilts, leans, and posture, Feldy is still always fascinating because his pendulum arm kind of simplifies part of that story. The guy is always in balance, but has ridiculous control over where his balance (tilted axis) is from shot to shot. He's a good example of paradoxically "aggressive tilt" in balance that moves him forward even if he appears to be leaning away in many shots, I think. Try to "see" where you think his balance is and it may be further fun for you:

Digging the hang drum / hand pan music, one of my favorite insturments.

Feldy's form kinda looks to me like what most newer players who try to use rounding for power think they are doing. Doesn't look like his shoulder collapses but it's interesting how much it just looks like his arm gets pulled around and out powerfully but with control and without bad rounding.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I played a whole round where I paused on my X step to verify I was balancing better on it and not too nose over toes. And I've been on average like 5-10 degrees less hyzer because I've been standing up more straight to practice that balance but haven't reconciled the muscle memory to still get the same amount of hyzer I want.

However, I can hyzer lean quite a lot and still pause on my X step and be balanced so I might just start doing that when I practice the pause-balance-check and want more hyzer since that's a fun way I can practice while still playing. Plus, I've noticed AB and others sometimes look really hunched over for big hyzers during their X step and I actually prefer preemptively setting and maintaining the hyzer lean I want so I think it's fine as long as I'm balanced with it.

However, I got distracted testing other stuff out so I probably accidentally reverted on multiple things (X balance, wider reachback, initially diagonal walk up line) in the below video while focusing on trying some other stuff.

Interestingly, holding the off hand on the thigh to hold it close preemptively got me to my same max run up speed PR that I've only hit once but this time with a walkup and more frequent access to my top speeds (full tech disc test vid dropping tomorrow morning on it).

Speaking of balance, check out 1:43 for a funny balance thing, not sure why that happened. Maybe I was expecting more follow through momentum but was then surprised it dissipated quickly and just ended up balanced in a different way.

 

[Brychanus]

Digging the hang drum / hand pan music, one of my favorite insturments.

Feldy's form kinda looks to me like what most newer players who try to use rounding for power think they are doing. Doesn't look like his shoulder collapses but it's interesting how much it just looks like his arm gets pulled around and out powerfully but with control and without bad rounding.

Yeah I find it very soothing.

I think that nails it down. Sidewinder or Josh also have both expeirmented around with fully straight(ish) arms that are basically almost all about centrifugal force. That's what Josh is talking about when he compares what he calls a "swing" and a "pull" style. I would not generalize from only his n=1 data, but anecdotally he gets ~3mph more from the more linear pull/leg leading/horizontal abduction part of the move. However, he has also spent enough time with the centrigufal motions that his body has picked up part of how that works, too. So I still like to return to Feldy as close to the purest thing you can get that still goes through all the other main "beats" you want to see in form. IMHO most players who skip the centrifugal moves are missing out on an efficiency opportunity. You don't need to throw like Feldy or GG to use it, either. It's just less emphasized in more horizontal-linear forms. I am curious if in like baseball pitching part of the reason we're getting more horizontal is that (at least in certain bodies, but I don't know we really know yet) it does yield a higher ceiling for peak speed. Or you can be more like Feldy and GG relying on more gravity and centrifugal efficiency and spin at (possibly) slightly lower speeds.

This is also something I learned throwing sledgehammers on 360s/720s. I literally took a shot of whiskey one day before I did it and it really helped lmao. Since I'm now apparently trying to make my own form a kitbash of GG and Feldy I'm getting even more interested in how they harness forces again. I can already tell you it's very centrifugal even when the move is taken more "horizontal."

I played a whole round where I paused on my X step to verify I was balancing better on it and not too nose over toes. And I've been on average like 5-10 degrees less hyzer because I've been standing up more straight to practice that balance but haven't reconciled the muscle memory to still get the same amount of hyzer I want.

However, I can hyzer lean quite a lot and still pause on my X step and be balanced so I might just start doing that when I practice the pause-balance-check and want more hyzer since that's a fun way I can practice while still playing. Plus, I've noticed AB and others sometimes look really hunched over for big hyzers during their X step and I actually prefer preemptively setting and maintaining the hyzer lean I want so I think it's fine as long as I'm balanced with it.

However, I got distracted testing other stuff out so I probably accidentally reverted on multiple things (X balance, wider reachback, initially diagonal walk up line) in the below video while focusing on trying some other stuff.

Interestingly, holding the off hand on the thigh to hold it close preemptively got me to my same max run up speed PR that I've only hit once but this time with a walkup and more frequent access to my top speeds (full tech disc test vid dropping tomorrow morning on it).

Speaking of balance, check out 1:43 for a funny balance thing, not sure why that happened. Maybe I was expecting more follow through momentum but was then surprised it dissipated quickly and just ended up balanced in a different way.

Those experiments are all interesting and make sense.

-I love, love, love the look of the hand on/near the pocket on you for now at least. This is an old "trick" and it exists for a reason. Also the basis of seabas "don't spill the beverage." Way better. Please keep doing that lmao.

-I guess if I were to focus you on one other thing right now it would be to look at your pump. A little too phrenetic and compensatory. Let it be more rhythmic and while you're slowing down, really try to focus on how the weight of your arm can swing/reach back away and slightly "up" relative to the ground to levitate you. That's all a source of "free" power in the end. It is part of balance moving over the drive leg. "let it go" and really let the arm take you back. BTW "leaving it behind" style only works if it functions the same way in sequence, loading, and coiled posture.

-1:43: I suggest you start messing around with this with a glass of water/beer/gin and tonic in your hand. I swear to Dunipace this is one of the underrated moves in disc golf. Put as much momentum as you can with as much balanced tilt as you can without spilling the beverage. Important to do it right - direct both the disc and the kick directly down the line/toward the target for this one. My leg still kicks through forward sometimes when I add momentum above maybe 80%. Isaac Robinson's does. You'll see it in McBeth or GG etc. sometimes too as they add power. The think you're trying to do in the end is get as much of that whole body tilted spiral action into the disc. Occasionally the excess momentum will "vent" in different directions and degrees depending on your chain and balance. I wish I had spent more time with this earlier, probably would have spared me some knee and shoulder pain. By the way, my suspicion is that this is going to give you some grip-posture-balance connection hints, eventually.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

This is also something I learned throwing sledgehammers on 360s/720s. I literally took a shot of whiskey one day before I did it and it really helped lmao.

Where's the vid of this . I still need to get a hammer, I want to actually try to throw it in the field with power, lol, but I don't think it will be very revolutionary. I always liked throwing shit for fun while growing up, so I threw rocks (trying to hit trees or just as far as I could), skipped rocks, threw thick sticks FH or BH while hiking / camping off of cliffs and shit like that.

-I guess if I were to focus you on one other thing right now it would be to look at your pump. A little too phrenetic and compensatory.

Yeah I noticed that too. It's kinda getting complicated actually as I introduced other things that have had unintended effects on my pump. But recently before I was testing a lot of different stuff and my normal form kind of stabilized there was a short period where it almost seemed like my pump went away or was just barley visible.

I just need to remember to feel the pump more as a subtle targetward rock and remember that it's actually small shoulder abduction that gives this feeling and the slight upward tilt you mentioned too.

1. Briefcase carry, the changed orientation of the disc seemed to tempt me to pump differently without thinking about it, more of an elbow extension out away from the chest instead of the usual elbow rock forward primarily from some shoulder abduction.
2. Bringing the disc back from the pump into the chest first before starting the reach back to delay the reach back.
   1. I think this helped me with straightening out the reach back by waiting for the torso to coil then the reachback feels like it's more controlled because if the elbow extends while you coil the arm feels like it picks up more momentum as it starts to swing around with the torso rotation or avoids the momentum by cancelling it out / going against it and opening the shoulder angler wider: so I think this helped when I was trying to reach back less wide. But also in that front view vid where you saw the more narrow reach back I was doing this in a different way (bring disc into chest while coiling) because I was playing with the wrist curl and thinking of curling the disc a bit into the chest during the coil before the reach back.
   2. However, this intermediary move since I think of it as bringing the disc into the chest also ended up influencing my pump to be less targetward and more of an elbow extension to bring the disc out away from the chest to match it as an opposite movement.
   3. This also makes it fee like I have less time though and so theres more temptation to rush the pump and bringing it back in closer to the chest while coiling and actually ended up barley even bringing it into the chest and instead it manifests as a weird tiny frantic motion or odd delay
3. I briefly tried X stepping more behind me instead of forward like Simon but this X step direction change felt weird with my pump since I previously thought of it as pumping targetward with a targetward X step

I'm also interested to try keeping the throwing arm elbow more extended initially. I noticed recent big jerm form looked kinda like it and doing a shadow swing like that, the arm feels heavier since the forearm is further away from the shoulder which makes me want to hang the arm a little bit lower and with less elbow extension needing to be timed it kinda feels like I can just focus more on getting a deeper coil stretch and then suddenly the arm just seems to be in a good reachback position but with a little elbow bend leftover to so there's still some dynamic play left in the final reachback.

 

[Brychanus]

Where's the vid of this . I still need to get a hammer, I want to actually try to throw it in the field with power, lol, but I don't think it will be very revolutionary. I always liked throwing shit for fun while growing up, so I threw rocks (trying to hit trees or just as far as I could), skipped rocks, threw thick sticks FH or BH while hiking / camping off of cliffs and shit like that.

Yeah I noticed that too. It's kinda getting complicated actually as I introduced other things that have had unintended effects on my pump. But recently before I was testing a lot of different stuff and my normal form kind of stabilized there was a short period where it almost seemed like my pump went away or was just barley visible.

I just need to remember to feel the pump more as a subtle targetward rock and remember that it's actually small shoulder abduction that gives this feeling and the slight upward tilt you mentioned too.

1. Briefcase carry, the changed orientation of the disc seemed to tempt me to pump differently without thinking about it, more of an elbow extension out away from the chest instead of the usual elbow rock forward primarily from some shoulder abduction.
2. Bringing the disc back from the pump into the chest first before starting the reach back to delay the reach back.
   1. I think this helped me with straightening out the reach back by waiting for the torso to coil then the reachback feels like it's more controlled because if the elbow extends while you coil the arm feels like it picks up more momentum as it starts to swing around with the torso rotation or avoids the momentum by cancelling it out / going against it and opening the shoulder angler wider: so I think this helped when I was trying to reach back less wide. But also in that front view vid where you saw the more narrow reach back I was doing this in a different way (bring disc into chest while coiling) because I was playing with the wrist curl and thinking of curling the disc a bit into the chest during the coil before the reach back.
   2. However, this intermediary move since I think of it as bringing the disc into the chest also ended up influencing my pump to be less targetward and more of an elbow extension to bring the disc out away from the chest to match it as an opposite movement.
   3. This also makes it fee like I have less time though and so theres more temptation to rush the pump and bringing it back in closer to the chest while coiling and actually ended up barley even bringing it into the chest and instead it manifests as a weird tiny frantic motion or odd delay
3. I briefly tried X stepping more behind me instead of forward like Simon but this X step direction change felt weird with my pump since I previously thought of it as pumping targetward with a targetward X step

I'm also interested to try keeping the throwing arm elbow more extended initially. I noticed recent big jerm form looked kinda like it and doing a shadow swing like that, the arm feels heavier since the forearm is further away from the shoulder which makes me want to hang the arm a little bit lower and with less elbow extension needing to be timed it kinda feels like I can just focus more on getting a deeper coil stretch and then suddenly the arm just seems to be in a good reachback position but with a little elbow bend leftover to so there's still some dynamic play left in the final reachback.

Oh goodness. I do have a few videos. I had trouble with balance in this and swinging a little too "over the top" too by the last time I recorded but here's a slightly buzzed man at 8am throwing 8lb sledges. At some point after this I kept trying to take it moving more aggressively down the line but I can't find them.



I also talked a bit about it here:


An early PDGA member there talked about what he perceived to be differences in hammers, baseball, disc golf. I replied at the time. Still not 100% sure if we were talking past each other there because he didn't reply.

And yes, I think childhood throwing matters. I did almost none. The reason I have a small labrum tear is I tried to throw a football too hard, and torqued my shoulder instead because I didn't know how to shift my weight. So for me hammers were an effective stand in for stuff I never learned growing up, probably.

Pumps: I think I follow what you're saying. The pump should probably always be a bit of a momentum trick even if it is small - as it pumps forward it helps carry your mass forward and helps to "swing the x-step in behind you," mechanically. Try to feel it out. I've tried various kinds now (pendulum, windmill, small elbow, large elbow, true "leave behind"). They all have different & predictable pros and cons for learning at least. In every version I've tried it's very sensitive to what's happening on the rear/x-step side because it's part of the balance and reciprocating movement across the whole chain (like arms swinging back and forth when walking or running).

 

[Brychanus]

Also maybe look more at Isaac Robinson, Nate Doss style pumps for inspiration.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Oh goodness. I do have a few videos. I had trouble with balance in this and swinging a little too "over the top" too by the last time I recorded but here's a slightly buzzed man at 8am throwing 8lb sledges. At some point after this I kept trying to take it moving more aggressively down the line but I can't find them.



I also talked a bit about it here:


An early PDGA member there talked about what he perceived to be differences in hammers, baseball, disc golf. I replied at the time. Still not 100% sure if we were talking past each other there because he didn't reply.

And yes, I think childhood throwing matters. I did almost none. The reason I have a small labrum tear is I tried to throw a football too hard, and torqued my shoulder instead because I didn't know how to shift my weight. So for me hammers were an effective stand in for stuff I never learned growing up, probably.

Pumps: I think I follow what you're saying. The pump should probably always be a bit of a momentum trick even if it is small - as it pumps forward it helps carry your mass forward and helps to "swing the x-step in behind you," mechanically. Try to feel it out. I've tried various kinds now (pendulum, windmill, small elbow, large elbow, true "leave behind"). They all have different & predictable pros and cons for learning at least. In every version I've tried it's very sensitive to what's happening on the rear/x-step side because it's part of the balance and reciprocating movement across the whole chain (like arms swinging back and forth when walking or running).

Hah nice, I imagine that sledgehammer throw would look really weird to passersby.

Oh yeah and my pump definitely gets bigger when I full runup because of how it aids the momentum into the crow hop.

 

[Brychanus]

Hah nice, I imagine that sledgehammer throw would look really weird to passersby.

Oh yeah and my pump definitely gets bigger when I full runup because of how it aids the momentum into the crow hop.

I definitely had to wave awkwardly at a couple other people using the field (and responsibly fill in any divots lol)

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Here's some fun predict the hyzer and launch angles:

1.


I'll give you two frames on the next two:

2.


3.

 

[Brychanus]

Here's some fun predict the hyzer and launch angles:

1.
View attachment 338122

I'll give you two frames on the next two:

2.
View attachment 338141View attachment 338142

3.
View attachment 338144View attachment 338143

@disc-golf-neil I like this game mostly because I can't wait to see how bad I am at it and learn from it. I'll even try at launch angle, launch trajectory. Full shot shape will depend more on the disc so I'll kinda skip a bit of that.

Hypothesis 1: I think the imaginary balance line and butt contain the most information from posture theory so we'll see how much that stacks up.

Hypothesis 2: How much arm and posture transition independence each player really has will matter so we'll see.

1. Shallow hyzer (maybe 15 degrees), low-ish trajectory (10-15 degrees). This sucker might pull a big switcheroo on me.
2. Striding somewhat uphill I think. Modified out-in-out leg sweep and balance are making me think hyzer (maybe 20 degrees or so) but launch is going to go somewhere a bit NorthEast maybe 30-40 degrees launch, maybe hyzering back West? I can't tell where the basket is so I don't really have other context clues than the OB stake.
3. Also somewhat uphill. I think this one is going somewhat NorthWest. Kind of lazy but thinking a shallowish hyzerflip (<15 degrees) classic Calvin low line, maybe hugging the terrain contour ~15 degree launch angle accounting for the sloped hill.

Oh god Neil, this is terrifying. Let's grade my work. Show me. Then gimme more. If anyone else joins in we can keep score

 

[disc-golf-neil]

@disc-golf-neil I like this game mostly because I can't wait to see how bad I am at it and learn from it. I'll even try at launch angle, launch trajectory. Full shot shape will depend more on the disc so I'll kinda skip a bit of that.

Hypothesis 1: I think the imaginary balance line and butt contain the most information from posture theory so we'll see how much that stacks up.

Hypothesis 2: How much arm and posture transition independence each player really has will matter so we'll see.

1. Shallow hyzer (maybe 15 degrees), low-ish trajectory (10-15 degrees). This sucker might pull a big switcheroo on me.
2. Striding somewhat uphill I think. Modified out-in-out leg sweep and balance are making me think hyzer (maybe 20 degrees or so) but launch is going to go somewhere a bit NorthEast maybe 30-40 degrees launch, maybe hyzering back West? I can't tell where the basket is so I don't really have other context clues than the OB stake.
3. Also somewhat uphill. I think this one is going somewhat NorthWest. Kind of lazy but thinking a shallowish hyzerflip (<15 degrees) classic Calvin low line, maybe hugging the terrain contour ~15 degree launch angle accounting for the sloped hill.

Oh god Neil, this is terrifying. Let's grade my work. Show me. Then gimme more. If anyone else joins in we can keep score

Oops forgot to check back. Sorry I left you hanging and I'm on mobile atm and don't have the timestamps handy. I'll get the times tomorrow.

They are all from final round of Jonesboro, possibly all back 9 so this is from memory:

1. Same hole and general shot shape and angles as the Ricky one above. It was a low ish traj but I think it was 20-25 hyzer but prob because he blasts them and needs extra lol.
2 and 3 are the same hole and same type of shot from both, sky spike hyzer.

I thought these were interesting because 1. AB has such a huge hyzer lean but just throws a normal low ish hyzer line with a common hyzer angle. I could imagine him throwing a crazy spike hyzer like the one you guessed at from before (I have to go back and see this same moment in that spike hyzer, curios now if that stage has diff signs).

2 and 3 because while watching it and seeing them line it up it's obvious what they are going to do but then when I go to the stills I know I'd think they look pretty normal for them to me but then suddenly they are throwing it into space a few frames later, lol.

Simon does look like he has lower than usual shoulder flexion tho but he also does seem to have a below chest arm slot usually on regular low lines still, but Calvin is even harder to tell.

 

[Brychanus]

Nice. Yeah, I think what I want to pay attention to next is how much the camera angle/parallax play into it vs. their motion. I'm not sure what it will teach us yet but I find it fun