Mattallica
* Ace Member *
Does it not?
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Glaring omission in the top 10
- Thread starter MrHighlandPark
- Start date
Does it not?
Yes, there is a good way to choose layouts...they are clearly labeled gold, blue, white, and red.
I see we have similar PDGA ratings (around 950). When I went to Maple Hill last year, I played the blue tees and had a blast scoring a few birdies and a few more bogies because they were designed for my skill level. If I had played the golds, I would have probably seen it as a miserable course.
It's silly to chose a layout that's too hard/long when it's intentionally designed to be too hard...and then complain that it's too hard/long, especially when whoever runs Maple Hill put so much time into implementing four clear and distinct layouts.
StoneWallKid
Birdie Member
Ya'll are crazy. Beaver Ranch (if thats conifer) is Awesome! So what if it has laminated paper tee signs. It also has nice tees, benches, bag hangers, sick elevation changes, open, tight, wooded, uphill, downhill, long, short holes. It has it all (except for a nearby parking lot). Though there are no par 4's there are some pretty challenging 3's
the_lung
Eagle Member
I heard nothing about this from Steve at the Vibram Open...would be sad if true.
Maple Hill is easily in my top 5 although as folks have shown, at just outside the top 10 at DGCR, it's not exactly underrated here. I absolutely love everything about the course, but I can see how it would get unfairly dinged by lesser skilled golfers for which even the red layout is too much course for. :\
Well, I think Birds Of Paradise should be in there, we just don't have as many active users of the site here on the West Coast. I'm still patiently waiting on Martin Dewgarita's review of it. 
Awesome I'll agree with. Paper tee signs didn't bother me. The tees were ok, not great, when I went. uphill, uphill, uphill. I don't think you get the payoff for all the uphill holes. Circle R - Hill had a better downhill hole and that is in Texas.
It is great, I'd have a hard time not giving it a 5 star rating. It is not one of the best in the world. I can argue it isn't even in the top 10 of what I have played.
Do you know ratings for the different tees off the top of your head, Jeff?
MrHighlandPark
Par Member
That doesn't make any sense. Intentionally play the layout that is above your skill level and then ding the course for even making it an option?
Three players shot 50 or 51 on the gold layout at the Vibram this year. Eventually they will need to design even longer courses to challenge the top pros.
Three players shot 50 or 51 on the gold layout at the Vibram this year. Eventually they will need to design even longer courses to challenge the top pros.
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Yeah - I played it in 2006. There were just the Airplanes and Elements layouts back then. My review has a little clock icon by it....but I do not think that excludes my rating from the average.
Even so, unless all courses were labeled clearly as you say MH is, there is no way I can figure out how to get consistency rate courses.
And, it is not silly.......people rate courses down all the time if they are too easy (not fun). It is the same rationale for it being too hard.......well, unless the reviewer has not learned how to play yet.
I didn't really like the aspect of playing through a Nursery for xmas trees......during a tourney it's great but playing solo I found it impossible to figure out which tree and which row of identical xmas trees my disc ended up in......and for the record the hole was designed to throw through the xmas tree acreage so wasnt that bad of a throw
I also lost some good discs to the black water ponds...so I was a bit grumpy
I still felt it was an amazing course....at the time it was after a winter storm and it was a mes and I was harsh in my review I am sure prior tot the vibram and right after it's in pristine condition
I also lost some good discs to the black water ponds...so I was a bit grumpy
I still felt it was an amazing course....at the time it was after a winter storm and it was a mes and I was harsh in my review I am sure prior tot the vibram and right after it's in pristine condition
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oh....and this is not just about me and my rating method. As has been mentioned, it happens all the time on DGCR that courses that are too rough or too hard get dinged.
We are reviewing here how "good" courses are. How "good" for what? .....For playing, of course. So, if they do not present a fun/challenging/rewarding/relaxing/whatever experience that the reviewer deems as "good", the rating will reflect that.
How many of the top 10 are brutally hard and rough around the edges? Well....there you go.
We are reviewing here how "good" courses are. How "good" for what? .....For playing, of course. So, if they do not present a fun/challenging/rewarding/relaxing/whatever experience that the reviewer deems as "good", the rating will reflect that.
How many of the top 10 are brutally hard and rough around the edges? Well....there you go.
Dave I just played Quaker's Challenge in PA in a tourney...it was in pristine condition
I changed my rating of it to a 5.....I suspect the genesis of this thread coincides with tourney conditions for Vibram Open at Maple Hill
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:thmbup:
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I checked the OP's review for his play date and it was not this year, but it was during Vibram Open pristine condition season last year.
More interesting is owner/designer Steve Dodge's "review" right below it where he explains all the updates that have been made. A very good read for me!
It brings up the point that needs to be made that reviews that are outdated often factor into current ratings - through long/hard work, courses are made better.....and through quick storms etc, course sometimes become quickly much worse.
It does, it was more of a "What are you talking about" type of question. :|
Ah, ok. Your comments make more sense if you played it six years ago.
As of last summer, it was clearly labeled, almost to a ridiculous degree with poles on top of the baskets adorned with multiple flags of each color that basket was intended for. I forget how the tees were labeled, but we weren't confused.
For courses which at least loosely follow PDGA standards for skill-level designs, it seems the best practice would be to play the layout that is designed for your skill level so that you experience the right mix of fun and challenge. Because Maple Hill participates in the PDGA color-coded tee scheme, I knew which tees I was supposed to play for the best combination of challenge and fun.
The comment about rating down a course that is too hard was meant to be conditional on easier tees having been provided. It would be equally silly for a gold- or blue-level player to go to Maple Hill, play the red tees, and then complain it was too easy.
Not to get off topic, but what changed to influence your reordering of some of your 4.5 and 5-rated courses over the past month, Opti?
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Fair enough, but how do you know what tees are best before playing? What if the tees are not clearly marked for skill level? What if the best tees for me (or any given player) is a mix of longs and shorts?
What if it is the basket locations that change it to different skill levels rather than the tees? There is a course here whose setup always alternates basket placement either ShortLongSL.... or LongShortLS.... except for tournaments where it is all long. The shorts are silly for the most part, but it is a great course in the all longs. How do you rate that?
To me, playing against the course and being pumped up about about scoring well and ticked off about not is the fun of playing. Renny is a Gold level course that is above me, but achieving par (real Gold par) on many holes is a challenge for me and is therefore rewarding. MH (as I played it at least) had lots and lots of tweener holes where there was no reward for me playing aggressively/expertly (at my level) versus just being conservative. That knocks down the euphoria of playing....and make it less "good" of a playing experience - and my rating reflects that.
MrHighlandPark
Par Member
My 700 rated wife doesn't find it to be too hard - I think you made an unusual choice when deciding which layout to play. Although some players like playing golds just to get an idea of what the pros are calabor of doing.
Also, my review date is coincidental - I've played the course all times of the year, including January and March (as far away from the Vibram as it gets). The timing of this thread is because I recently played three other top 10 courses, and was left with the feeling that there isn't a higher level of courses out there beyond what Maple Hill offers. Just my opinion and I'm sharing it to see if other posters have courses that they think should also be at the very top of the rankings.
Is there - or has there ever been - an official ranking put out by timg? The owner of highbridge told me that this site hasn't been there in three years to update their review for the official rankings. I couldn't figure out what he was referring to. I was thinking it would be cool to put out an official ranking where all the elite courses are judged only by players who have played most/all of them. I couldn't contribute to that ranking by I know many top pros could.
Mattallica
* Ace Member *
No doubt
