Hitting the reset button

[BrotherDave]

So practice the shots you are missing. Go to a hole with a stack of discs and throw that shot repeatedly. Pick them up and do it again. Or go to a field with trees in it and create the kind of line you are having trouble with and practice it.
This doesn't really work for me. I'll practice holes/lines but won't get any better b/c something in my form is limiting me.
If you watch the players who hit those shots consistently you will see different forms among them. Form doesn't give them or you accuracy. Practice does.
Practice isn't helping me throw farther or more accurately. I don't want to practice more, I want to practice better. I watched Wiggins give a distance clinic and can tell that he can pretty much sneeze a disc farther than I can throw for max D. That isn't b/c he drinks raw moose milk and is the bastard son of Zeus, he has fundamentally better form than I do. I'll never throw as far as he does b/c of talent/physical gift disparity but I should be able to be nearly as fundamentally sound as he is.
Obviously there are players with form so poor it inhibits their games. Once you can throw flat and smooth with full follow through and not cause injury to yourself your form is probably pretty solid. It makes sense to experiment with small changes but wholesale changes? You didn't miss that last shot because of your arm motion or your grip (basic form), you missed that shot due to poor balance or timing, which can be fixed with practice.
This is a big part of the problem. If there's (just making this number up) 10 parts to a fundamentally sound throw, I feel like I'll get around 7 of them right. If I work on those other 3, 3 other parts go to shit and I'm stuck with getting 7 different parts right. Ideally, I'd like to start over so that I can build a foundation and gradually add to it w/o putting carts before horses so that I can get closer to getting 8-9 out of 10 parts right. Does that make sense?[/b]
Stand behind players when they need to hit precise lines. Don't watch the disc, watch them. Many times you can see poor timing or balance before they release the shot. Even before they release you can tell the only thing which will save that shot is luck.

If you do hit the RESET button, what is the chance your forearm problem flares up? Your current form likely uses a motion which causes the least problem with your tendonitis (self preservation instincts). A bad motion causes pain and we naturally try not to repeat it. Your forearm may prevent significant changes.
I don't think the way I'm throwing now is 100% good for my forearm. I'm reluctant to grip as hard as I can and b/c of that to feel any kind of hit at all my follow through is abbreviated. I definitely think I can throw smarter, not harder, which is a big part of the reason why I want to revamp my mechanics

My comments in bold.

How hard is it to throw opposite handed backhand? I've never tried it, but might be interested in starting to learn.

I played non-dominant (left)handed for the 6 months my tendinitis was terrible. It's rough at first but I was able to get the knack of driving and approaching pretty quickly. The finesse part (and FH) like putting was HORRIBLE lefthanded. It's like giving yourself a "stranger" if you know what I mean.

 

[Widdershins]

So practice the shots you are missing. Go to a hole with a stack of discs and throw that shot repeatedly. Pick them up and do it again. Or go to a field with trees in it and create the kind of line you are having trouble with and practice it.
This doesn't really work for me. I'll practice holes/lines but won't get any better b/c something in my form is limiting me.
If you watch the players who hit those shots consistently you will see different forms among them. Form doesn't give them or you accuracy. Practice does.
Practice isn't helping me throw farther or more accurately. I don't want to practice more, I want to practice better. I watched Wiggins give a distance clinic and can tell that he can pretty much sneeze a disc farther than I can throw for max D. That isn't b/c he drinks raw moose milk and is the bastard son of Zeus, he has fundamentally better form than I do. I'll never throw as far as he does b/c of talent/physical gift disparity but I should be able to be nearly as fundamentally sound as he is.
Obviously there are players with form so poor it inhibits their games. Once you can throw flat and smooth with full follow through and not cause injury to yourself your form is probably pretty solid. It makes sense to experiment with small changes but wholesale changes? You didn't miss that last shot because of your arm motion or your grip (basic form), you missed that shot due to poor balance or timing, which can be fixed with practice.
This is a big part of the problem. If there's (just making this number up) 10 parts to a fundamentally sound throw, I feel like I'll get around 7 of them right. If I work on those other 3, 3 other parts go to shit and I'm stuck with getting 7 different parts right. Ideally, I'd like to start over so that I can build a foundation and gradually add to it w/o putting carts before horses so that I can get closer to getting 8-9 out of 10 parts right. Does that make sense?[/b]
Stand behind players when they need to hit precise lines. Don't watch the disc, watch them. Many times you can see poor timing or balance before they release the shot. Even before they release you can tell the only thing which will save that shot is luck.

If you do hit the RESET button, what is the chance your forearm problem flares up? Your current form likely uses a motion which causes the least problem with your tendonitis (self preservation instincts). A bad motion causes pain and we naturally try not to repeat it. Your forearm may prevent significant changes.
I don't think the way I'm throwing now is 100% good for my forearm. I'm reluctant to grip as hard as I can and b/c of that to feel any kind of hit at all my follow through is abbreviated. I definitely think I can throw smarter, not harder, which is a big part of the reason why I want to revamp my mechanics

My comments in bold.

Best of luck, Brother Dave. You know your game and I have never seen you throw a shot. Your scores and your body will tell you what works for you.

My comments are generally targeted to a broader audience, including this thread. For a player who regularly plays with accomplished players (and whose form was developed by mirroring those as well) a radical change in form, hoping primarily for more distance, may not be nearly as beneficial as simply practicing to improve accuracy and consistency.

The benefit of long term, consistent practice is hard to underestimate.

 

[keltik1]

Dave I found a clandestine video I shot of you at North Asheboro back in January. would you like me to post it on Youtube for all to enjoy?

 

[sidewinder22]

The benefit of long term, consistent practice is hard to underestimate.

That's also how I broke my leg.

 

[BrotherDave]

Best of luck, Brother Dave. You know your game and I have never seen you throw a shot. Your scores and your body will tell you what works for you.

My comments are generally targeted to a broader audience, including this thread. For a player who regularly plays with accomplished players (and whose form was developed by mirroring those as well) a radical change in form, hoping primarily for more distance, may not be nearly as beneficial as simply practicing to improve accuracy and consistency.

The benefit of long term, consistent practice is hard to underestimate.

Thanks. I hope I didn't come across as unappreciative to your advice. I guess what is so frustrating for me is, every time I've taken this game seriously and did long term, consistent practice, I've gotten fluke injuries (tendinitis rehab for 6 mos which was DG related; broken foot from basketball) or long bouts of sinus problems. I think I'm finally making headway into curbing the sinus problems so once this weather stops being wet and cold all the time I'll probably be more dedicated to practicing. I just want to make sure I'm not practicing incorrectly.

Dave I found a clandestine video I shot of you at North Asheboro back in January. would you like me to post it on Youtube for all to enjoy?

Oh yeah, I remember that. I know for a fact that throw will look bad, it felt bad when I threw it, but yeah throw it up. I want to check out that train wreck.

 

[JR]

Regarding sinus problems and waiting for better weather>tendonitis protection seems like a great idea. I'd hit the gym to adjust for throwing practice when the time is right for it.

 

[BrotherDave]

Regarding sinus problems and waiting for better weather>tendonitis protection seems like a great idea. I'd hit the gym to adjust for throwing practice when the time is right for it.

You rock for chiming in so much.

My brother has a home gym and an old bowflex that I've been using a lot more lately. Yeah, not the best equipment in the world but it's free. I'm also jogging way more regularly than I ever have and I want to get back into playing basketball at least once a week. I played for 4 hours on Sunday and I've been board stiff since.

I went to an allergist for the first time about a month ago and I think the visit was actually worthwhile. I've been feeling a lot more sinus problems free now that I know what things I'm allergic to (basically North Carolina) and how to avoid them.

JR, if you don't mind me asking, how did you get your tendinitis so bad and were there any specific exercises you did that helped a lot? I've been babying my arms in terms of weightlifting but even the modest amount I've been doing seems to be helping a lot, my arm feels closer to 99% than it ever did. It had felt around 85-90% right for a long time and I had almost given up on it feeling close to normal again.

So anyway, my basic plan of attack right now is to continue working on my fitness and play some rounds with a stripped down bag, something like Eagle, Leo, Axis, Fuse, and putters. When that Tangent comes out I'll probably get one of those and throw it a ton for some one disc rounds because it sounds like a MVP Comet. Once this weather is less awful I'll see if Keltik and I can get together for some fieldwork.

 

[JR]

We are here to help and i'm paying forward for the help i've gotten.

I hurt my arm at work. It was physically demanding normally handling heavy duty gear and when a part broke in a 20 ton pressure creating machine=lots of metal to keep the machine from breaking down under that pressure and a new smaller tightening wheel was attached i had to rip hard each time i opened and shut that thing. Normally i had to spin the thing in one movement and with the lesser leverage of the smaller wheel i had to perform full force double handed yanks a dozen times in tightening the screw to hold a lid on the machine in place for that 20 ton pressure to squeeze the samples i handled for x ray fluorescence mass spectrometry. I also needed to yank fully to open the lid. I did that every 12 minutes but i also needed to use a centrifuge that was even wilder so it too needed full force yanking to break the void between the pan used to grind rock into dust and the centrifuge. They told me that if the pan weighing 7 kilos would slip from the centrifuge it would fly through the metal wall of the centrifuge and through two brick walls with a space of 20' in between them.

It took me 8 years after surgery to get the arm to not act up immediately upon exercise and almost 14 years later i still get hassle from the arm after use. Static work and shaking are the worst offenders so i'd avoid those. Movement is good as long as it isn't too fast to shake the tendons. Which will aggravate the arm quickly and bad. Really bad.

No exercise has worked better than others except ones with slower movements. Interestingly warm up and mild stretching has been more beneficial for me in avoiding reaggravating the arm than any training. Of course cold packs help. As long as they are not overdone to make the muscles tight pulling the tendons. Muscles do get tighter when cold so you cannot use cold packs too much without getting a backlash. Swinging the arms around in all directions at low power trying to loosen the muscles maximally before and after exercise has helped me most after cold treatments.

I've not hit weights and resistance bands as much as on previous winters but i've ran indoors and biked out in the snow more than ever. 10 kilometers or a hair more 3-4 times a week by bike since i noticed my left foot PF does not want to go away even with minimal speed jogging trying to use free running form and five finger shoes. I even made my own huaraches (look it up if you're into running) but they have even less damping than the Vibram Komodosports i used and the version i have now (prototyping the first round) is not disc golfable because of not staying in place. And only 10 % lighter than the Vibrams but it is larger and protecting the side of the foot and the toes way more than original huaraches so the weight could go down drastically. I hit a snag in the material. I wanted something grippy and the material was slip stop rubber mat that picked up all the dirt immediately and thereafter i was left with dirt on dirt contact thanks to the minimal ridges it has. So even less grip than the too hard to grip hard surfaces Vibrams grr. It seems that if getting much wider rope to tie the huaraches with does not work for keeping it in place there is no way that it could work in DG. But i'm not giving up on running just yet due to PF or lack of success with huaraches. I want to try a running only barely foot protecting light version for running and cycling alone. The mat that i used for material is thin so it stresses the body even more than the 4 mm thick invisible shoes that i got the idea from.

I need to run more than anyone competing in disc golf events while filming and having had the least DG in my career last year due to another surgery i'm rusty. And the PF has been longer than ever. But not any more on the right side. So i tried to not stress the PF for over a month and no joy. Running and cycling goes up and down in the stressfulness and reactions to stress. I just hope that over time the added non DG exercise that feels harder and lasts longer at high stress levels will build up my fitness and tendons + muscles to allow the PF to go away and allow me to be fresher while playing and filming. Hopefully resulting in less shaky films and less locomotive breath

I hope your recovery is less problematic and faster than mine.

 

[BrotherDave]

Good lord, man. You put my injury to shame, I just hurt it too bad playing too much DG and strong arming it. I can't compare to injuring it in some evil scientist's lab. I wish you continued recovery as well.

 

[JR]

I don't think there is a mild tennis elbow injury and man i wish it weren't a competition because i don't want anyone to suffer that shit it's pure evil.

 

[Monocacy]

BroD: Hitting the reset button is a personal decision. I have done it many times, and my play has suffered accordingly afterwards, but each time yielded some overall improvement. I have yet to find the magic to leave the 300' barrier in the dust, but continue to be optimistic that I'm getting closer.

For me, the main goal of my last "reset" was to avoid shoulder injury due to strong-arming / starting the pull too early. I was delighted to play a 36-hole tourney last weekend with no significant shoulder pain. Beat some of the young guys, too. For me, the "reset" was well worth it.

Best wishes whichever way you decide to go.

 

[BrotherDave]

I think most of my problem is related to thus: I lose the hammer pound sensation as I come across the pecs for some reason. My chain/whip is taut then it gets loose for some reason (probably something to do with opening/closing shoulders incorrectly) then I manage to get some tautness again right before the right pec drill/elbow chop part but by that point I've lost all momentum my footwork and body would have given it and the throw is about as weak as a no-step standstill, too weak to induce a follow-through usually.

 

[JR]

Stopping is no good. Having a stiff arm muscle wise in the early part of the throw slows the arm down so not good either. Easy peasy up to right pec position +- something then bang on. How much that +- is depends on the player. Some throw far with an early rip most benefit from a later acceleration point.

 

[cubeofsoup]

I think most of my problem is related to thus: I lose the hammer pound sensation as I come across the pecs for some reason. My chain/whip is taut then it gets loose for some reason (probably something to do with opening/closing shoulders incorrectly) then I manage to get some tautness again right before the right pec drill/elbow chop part but by that point I've lost all momentum my footwork and body would have given it and the throw is about as weak as a no-step standstill, too weak to induce a follow-through usually.

Perhaps you will find salvation in attempting things with your throw that are drastically different. Almost to give you that "left hand" sensation. It can feel like you are doing something minutely different but the case is probably that you revert to habit in the quickest moments of the throw and no matter how hard you try, habit prevails. A way must be found to break the habit.

Typing this out makes me wish I had someone who was a form-studying-freak like me around here so we could nerd out together about our throws. I would love for someone to sit there and critique the every loving shit out of me so I could actually find something to improve. Recording video and getting feedback is good but it's too delayed of a return to settle in my brain. I think I need real teaching, someone to be there and say, "no move this here, pull later", etc. A teacher in real life might be just the thing. Instant feedback.

I know back when I was 12 or 13 and I was taking lessons for ball golf, there were a few things my teacher made me do that made it feel like I wouldn't even make contact with the ball. But I relaxed and took his advice, changed the grip, stance, etc. A few terrible duffs, slices, and wacks later...I make contact with one and it sails, effortlessly on a pure line. Then it clicks, now it feels natural. I think without someone forcing me into an uncomfortable (albeit correct) form, I would have never improved. I need that in disc now.

Who lives in Rochester and wants to yell at me?

 

[JR]

Remote YELLL!!!! :-D

 

[cubeofsoup]

JR I'll bring my macbook into my backyard, video chat with skype. I can throw into a net or something. It could work.

 

[JR]

I have a slow mini notebook that is so slow that it can only show a couple of pictures per second so it is probably impossible to say much of anything useful because i cannot really see the throws. And i'm at UDT +2 so timing might be problematic. But if you can record the videos at the same time and upload them somewhere fast i might be able to download them and give feedback soonish. Within the same session hopefully.

 

[BrotherDave]

I think most of my problem is related to thus: I lose the hammer pound sensation as I come across the pecs for some reason. My chain/whip is taut then it gets loose for some reason (probably something to do with opening/closing shoulders incorrectly) then I manage to get some tautness again right before the right pec drill/elbow chop part but by that point I've lost all momentum my footwork and body would have given it and the throw is about as weak as a no-step standstill, too weak to induce a follow-through usually.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is a big culprit. Went out in the field today and deliberately made sure I was "pulling the hammer" the whole time and I was getting much cleaner throws, even got audible snap a couple times from disc slipping out early. Gotta try and keep this feeling in every throw and just ever so slowly build it up.

 

[BrotherDave]

Live instruction and feedback by an outside viewer should help a ton. Tendonitis ain't a bitch it's a whore from hell and you might have subconscious opening of the fingers for killed snap going on.

There may be truth to this. I have a habit that creeps in from time to time of loosening my grip as I come into the power pocket.

Okay, there is definite truth to this. I cannot stop doing this. As soon as I start my pull, my hand loosens up a lot, especially my middle, ring, and pinkie fingers. I HAVE NO IDEA WHY I CAN"T STOP. I don't think it's directly tendinitis related. It's like an overcautious reaction to prevent strong-arming or something. I can't grip it loose enough to feel the hammer pound while being strong enough to keep the disc from slipping out before I have a chance to pinch hard.

I'm at a loss, I'm not sure how I can unlearn doing this.

 

[JR]

It may be subconscious thus automatic. It happens to me especially when i'm tired. The obvious things to check are that you are well rested, not inflamed, seen a doctor about nerve electrical conductivity test to see if the nerves are pinched, move the thumb toward the center of the disc from half over the wing half on the flight plate in quarter or so inch increments and resting the base of the thumb on the flight plate pushing the outermost section of the thumb down in about 70 degree angle. As hard as you can once the elbow chop starts +- some time it might depend on the person when to push the thumb down while pinching with the index finger and if possible also raising the index finger against the thumb.