Idea about sanctioned play that I have had kicking around for a bit. (long post)

[numbernine]

1. This only applies to sanctioned events obviously. I think it excludes A tiers anyway, because I think you have to be a current member to play an A tier. Maybe that's not true, but I feel like I have heard that before. I should know this. I don't. Sorry.

2. This has not directly impacted me. It's something I have noticed over the span of the four years that I have been playing touneys though.

OK so anyway; It FEELS like the majority of the time, the winner in AM3 and AM2 tournaments are some local dude with no PDGA number. Totally anecdotal by the way, and I have no evidence to present you, outside of what I have seen.

With that being said, do we need another option for people without a PDGA number that want to play sanctioned events? In other words, is there something we could be doing better as a community to drive them towards getting registered and getting a rating, and/or preventing the lifetime Am3 guys from romping the same tournament for the rest of his life?

Here are the options and I have come up with them.
- Do nothing and stay on course with how we do it now.
- if you don't have a PDGA number, you play advanced. This keeps the vultures from raping the new guys.
- if you don't have a PDGA number, you are not available for the cashout at the end of the round, but you can win a trophy if you win. or something. same idea.
- Non-PDGA number players go into their own division. Smaller entry fee, MUCH smaller payout.

Or is it even really a problem? I dunno. I see a lot of my friends that play Rec, getting destroyed by a dude that has been playing for a decade. And there always seems to be that dude(s) at a tourney.

tl;dr is there an issue in sanctioned play and can we fix it?
Thanks!

 

[AndyJB]

I have honestly never seen this problem.

 

[nolangherity]

or just have someone that records player ratings for free and eliminate the pdga. straight cash monies to the winners.

 

[elmexdela]

so your trying to make it harder for the baggers?

 

[redrum]

I have heard of TDs moving people based off the rounds they have recorded. Even if you aren't a PDGA member, your rounds are recorded and rated. It is possible to go back through a couple old events and figure out what level player that person is. And I have known TDs that have refused to allow a player to enter a division their "rating" says otherwise.

I'm cool with no number, play Open.

The PDGA is now enacting a move though to battle this. If you have no number, and win the even, maybe it's cash too but I know win, then they pull out basically $40 from your pay out plus the extra $10 you paid initially and get you a membership. I don't have all the vernacular in front of me so if I missed something there please edit.

 

[redrum]

To help address the sandbagging issues at the Michigan State Championships, a motion was made and the Motion was passed:
a. For the Am2/Am3 (including the women) divisions in Featured Events, if there is a player that takes 1st or 2nd place and that player has never had a PDGA membership the Featured Event will deduct from that player's payouts $35 to cover the cost of buying them a PDGA membership.
b. The remaining $10 was initially paid by the player at entry.
c. The last missing $5 is because the MDGO is an Affiliate Club.
d. Non-current PDGA members do not apply.
e. The MDGO will reimburse $17 to the FE to help cover any loss.
f. It is HEAVILY stressed that this needs to be advertised so the player base is aware of this prior to the event.

This was passed to address the issue of players not having player ratings. Even if they are not current, the TD does get a file from the PDGA that includes the player's rating.


So this is what I was talking about. It has been adopted for the Michigan State series events. I think something like this could work on a bigger scale

 

[scarpfish]

OK so anyway; It FEELS like the majority of the time, the winner in AM3 and AM2 tournaments are some local dude with no PDGA number.

Usually one explanation of this is that the lower you go down the skill based ladder, and the lower the tier of the event, the more likely that a significant percentage of the players are going to be some local dude with no PDGA number, therefore its more mathematically likely that a guy who is...

1. reasonably good at disc golf,
2. familiar with the course,
3. But doesn't have the time and money to commit to playing enough events to make PDGA membership practical.

...quite possibly ends up winning in those divisions.

Totally anecdotal by the way, and I have no evidence to present you, outside of what I have seen.

That perfectly summarizes about 98% of sandbagging complaints that I've ever heard.

With that being said, do we need another option for people without a PDGA number that want to play sanctioned events?

No.

Here are the options and I have come up with them.
- Do nothing and stay on course with how we do it now.

I like that one.

 

[scarpfish]

a. For the Am2/Am3 (including the women) divisions in Featured Events, if there is a player that takes 1st or 2nd place and that player has never had a PDGA membership the Featured Event will deduct from that player's payouts $35 to cover the cost of buying them a PDGA membership.

What if a player takes 1st or 2nd place against a single card division (a near certainty for women in a lot of places) full of first timer stumblebums? There's quite a difference in difficulty in beating a field of 3-5 versus a field of 10+.

 

[New013]

all players that have played previous rounds that were rated have ratings and the TD can see those ratings. it's up to the TD to let people know they are rated to high to play in a specific division. generally these problems are solved by everyone letting people know they need to move up. most people do and i think the people who are being dicks about it are more of outiers. it's just more obvious when one guy is clearly playing in a division below his skill level.

i personally have never had an active membership in the pdga and don't plan to anytime soon. for the most part i play less than 5 sanctioned tourneys a year and don't really give a **** about having a rating so what's the point. there's so many local non sanctioned events going on here that i can avoid helping the pdga **** over ams.

 

[redrum]

What if a player takes 1st or 2nd place against a single card division (a near certainty for women in a lot of places) full of first timer stumblebums? There's quite a difference in difficulty in beating a field of 3-5 versus a field of 10+.

I'm not sure, but I would bet that it still applies. I'm not the creator, simply the messenger. We had one of the biggest sandbaggers here in my area...many of you know who Jared Roan is. I use to play with him at leagues and events. He never had a number till just before he went to CO and went touring Pro, and use to beat up on the INT and ADV fields until we pushed him to get his number. It's almost a disservice to yourself if you're a good golfer to not get your number, and see just how far you can go

 

[New013]

a lot of people think im a bagger after they watch me drive.


then they see me putt and they get it...



:|

 

[DavidSauls]

Here are the options and I have come up with them.
- Do nothing and stay on course with how we do it now.
- if you don't have a PDGA number, you play advanced. This keeps the vultures from raping the new guys.
- if you don't have a PDGA number, you are not available for the cashout at the end of the round, but you can win a trophy if you win. or something. same idea.
- Non-PDGA number players go into their own division. Smaller entry fee, MUCH smaller payout.

- Have TDs put them in appropriate divisions.

I mean, if it's a local dude who's been playing for a decade, surely he's known by the TD. If he's played tournaments before, as others have rightly said, he has a track record.

Otherwise, the cures are worse than the disease. It's not a real problem, at least not around here and apparently in most places. Most of the non-members are people just testing the tournament waters; why discourage them by making it tougher on them? And what about areas where most players are non-PDGA members?

 

[Cgkdisc]

The PDGA Competition Committee has been bouncing around ideas on this issue and I expect we'll see a new option announced later this year and made available for the start of the 2015 season.

 

[BuzzSharpe]

Some Really Good Points

And I think the best ones are made by New013 and DavidSauls. The cures probably are worse than the disease and there's no point in going out of one's way to help the Association screw over Ams, while entering few, if any sanctioned events in any given year.
As with most things, its a matter of money. Many, if not most never-registered players enter a tourney as a social event, rather than as a competitive athletic activity. And many of them want and need to do so for as little cash outlay as possible. I've seen that among older players, who will enter Rec division, because the age specific divisions add the word Advanced to the title, just to justify charging a higher entry fee. Just because a player is older and/or has been playing the sport for a long time doesn't necessarily mean that he's really any good. Advanced age and advanced skill level don't always coincide. That's what I tried to explain to a very young Jake McCoy at the 2007 Sneeky Pete Classic, that I had to enter in Rec, because there wasn't enough willing to pay the extra fee oldsters to make a Grand Masters division. I had a rare weekend of four good rounds and won by like two strokes. Does that make me a bagger? Maybe. From Jake's POV, it definitely did. In this year's recent Springwood Springtime Self-Invitational, never-registered and unrated player Daniel Davis won the three man Advanced Am division by double digits, while outscoring the top two Pros by two strokes, being the tourney's only player with two 1000+ rated rounds. Does that make him a bagger? Again, maybe. But maybe he had one of those rare weekends and has no impetus to 'turn pro', sort of like ball golf's Bobby Jones. In the 2003 NC State Games, a very good 16 year old girl was forced out of the Women's Division, which she would have won by 10 strokes, to complete a Juniors Division card with two teen aged boys, coming in third by a couple of strokes. Was that fair?
I believe that most players know their appropriate skill level and will enter tourneys accordingly. For the baggers who don't, maybe the best cure is to just try to shame them into not doing so again. Because as David says, all these possible, potential convoluted cures are worse than the disease.

 

[JC17393]

How about just awarding PDGA memberships to winners in AM divisions?

Say a non-member wins MA2...deduct $40 from whatever the payout is for winning, and give him a membership ($40 + $10 non-member fee already paid = $50 to the PDGA). Boom, that player gets ratings for that event and is a member for the rest of the year. And he has a rating to point to should there be an issue of "bagging" down the road.

You could arguably do this for any paid place for which the prize value covers the membership fee. Perhaps the PDGA could allot each event a certain number of memberships at "wholesale" price so the TD/club has the option of "selling" the membership at full value and having the same kind of profit margin that they would for discs and other merch.

 

[numbernine]

How about just awarding PDGA memberships to winners in AM divisions?

I like this idea a lot.

 

[DavidSauls]

Bearing in mind that we're already charging those players $10 extra, which isn't going to the payout. As a ratio to their entry fee, any payouts they receive are already reduced.

 

[rakeyohn]

I'm not sure, but I would bet that it still applies. I'm not the creator, simply the messenger. We had one of the biggest sandbaggers here in my area...many of you know who Jared Roan is. I use to play with him at leagues and events. He never had a number till just before he went to CO and went touring Pro, and use to beat up on the INT and ADV fields until we pushed him to get his number. It's almost a disservice to yourself if you're a good golfer to not get your number, and see just how far you can go

Jared Roan did not repeatedly beat on int or adv year after year, He played int for one season then switched to adv for the following season and open the season after. He took what he thought at the time was the best route for him and his game and it looks like it worked out pretty darn well for him. I'm certainly glad he didn't listen to all the crybabies along the way telling him what he should be doing so it would benefit their game over his. He may not have made it where he is today without doing it like he did.

 

[Rob Martin]

I have heard of TDs moving people based off the rounds they have recorded. Even if you aren't a PDGA member, your rounds are recorded and rated. It is possible to go back through a couple old events and figure out what level player that person is. And I have known TDs that have refused to allow a player to enter a division their "rating" says otherwise.

I'm cool with no number, play Open.

The PDGA is now enacting a move though to battle this. If you have no number, and win the even, maybe it's cash too but I know win, then they pull out basically $40 from your pay out plus the extra $10 you paid initially and get you a membership. I don't have all the vernacular in front of me so if I missed something there please edit.

In Kansas City we do this with league ace funds. If you ace in a club league your annual dues are pulled out befor payout.

 

[dreadlock86]

Usually one explanation of this is that the lower you go down the skill based ladder, and the lower the tier of the event, the more likely that a significant percentage of the players are going to be some local dude with no PDGA number, therefore its more mathematically likely that a guy who is...

1. reasonably good at disc golf,
2. familiar with the course,
3. But doesn't have the time and money to commit to playing enough events to make PDGA membership practical.

...quite possibly ends up winning in those divisions.


That perfectly summarizes about 98% of sandbagging complaints that I've ever heard.


No.


I like that one.

:clap:
all of this

What if a player takes 1st or 2nd place against a single card division (a near certainty for women in a lot of places) full of first timer stumblebums? There's quite a difference in difficulty in beating a field of 3-5 versus a field of 10+.

so what?