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Ledgestone Insurance Open

Anytime you deviate from standard pdga rules, those specific rules should be a on huge sign right by the tee imop. There should be no room for interpretation. Especially stroke and distance holes, drop zone, no re-tees, etc, etc. But I still think a specific short and sweet, large sign.. "If your drive is ob YOU MUST proceed to drop zone." Would do the trick. ;)

I appreciate you Dave. The problem is different people have different intents. At the VPO in Arlington last year, here is the exact wording from the Sunday round on hole 3 in position C.

In basket position C, the flag line left extends forward indefinitely. The basket and green (marked) are IB and completely surrounded by OB (aka, an "island" green). Any throw coming to rest short of the imaginary line (in yellow -- see diagram) through the B-pin plays standard OB rules.

Special Conditions (in basket position C):
There is a Drop Zone at the entry way (on the left) to the "island" green, with marked OB between the DZ and "island." Any throw that comes to rest OB on or beyond the imaginary line through the B-pin must next throw from the drop zone with a one-throw penalty.


I was the assistant TD in charge of the rules sheets and caddy books. I reviewed each change with the head TD and other assistant TDs. I can tell you personally that our word "must" in that last sentence was not intended to disallow optional re-throw. We believed that optional re-throw was always an option.
 
PDGA should have never issued a waiver for this. But they will continue to hand them out whenever asked as long as they get their check.
 
I appreciate you Dave. The problem is different people have different intents. At the VPO in Arlington last year, here is the exact wording from the Sunday round on hole 3 in position C.



I was the assistant TD in charge of the rules sheets and caddy books. I reviewed each change with the head TD and other assistant TDs. I can tell you personally that our word "must" in that last sentence was not intended to disallow optional re-throw. We believed that optional re-throw was always an option.

I would agree that the optional re-throw with penalty would (should!) always be an option. But I would guess that imaginary line gave you guys more trouble. ;)
 
Stroked for what?

Dana and Krupicka are the TDs involved with the situation, and they've stated that the confusion was that nowhere on the tee sign or the caddy book did it say that re-throws were disallowed. Only that players who throw OB from the tee should proceed directly to the drop zone. My guess is that the assumption was that players would interpret that to mean that the last-in-bounds option was out and that no one would reasonably prefer to re-tee should they go OB.

What wasn't accounted for was that McBeth saw the DZ earlier in the week when someone, unrelated to the tournament, had moved the OB ropes to such a position that they obstructed the drop zone area (specifically, they cut off the run-up area significantly). That problem had been fixed and the ropes moved away so that there was plenty of space to run-up, but McBeth at the time was unaware of that fact. Hence he wanted to re-tee rather than go to what he believed was a cramped drop zone ill-suited for his next throw. Had he known, I doubt he'd have wanted to re-throw from the tee whatsoever.

Given the confusion, throwing a provisional was a wise decision to keep things moving rather than wait on a TD's decision. And the TD's decision to recognize the provisional for what it was and discard it makes sense as well. It was a reasonable decision to make.


All that said, what is really bothering me about the whole situation, particularly the discussion afterward, is the notion that a TD can restrict a player from re-throwing from a lie under the Optional Re-throw rule. The TD can limit the options on an OB throw as was done for this event, preventing players from using the last-in-bounds spot or directing players to a drop zone when provided. What a TD cannot do is take away the Optional Re-throw rule. I'd bet a good amount of money that whatever waivers the tournament had did not specifically allow them to take away Optional Re-throw. The waivers only allowed them to restrict options under the OB rule (forced T&D, forced DZs, etc).

It would seem the confusion from the group at the tee was regarding that. According to some accounts, when Paul asked if he could re-tee rather than go to the DZ, Nikko said that a player can always re-tee. My understanding is that he was referring to the optional re-throw rule and he'd be correct in that case. From there, everyone (staff, Paul, etc) conflated Optional Re-throw and OB re-throw as if they are the same thing. THAT is what I feel the TDs got incorrect here.

Dana really had no reason to call Krupicka or Heinold for clarification. If Paul wanted to re-tee, he had every right to do so under the Optional Re-throw rule regardless of what the signs/caddy book said. He should not have had to throw that provisionally at all. But he did, and the TDs ruled as they did, and ultimately it made zero difference whatsoever in the grand scheme. End of story.

It should be a lesson for the future though. Not just to be crystal clear in the wording of caddy books and tee signs and any other listing of rules, but that there is a significant distinction between re-throwing from a previous lie pursuant to the OB rules and re-throwing from a previous lie pursuant to the Optional Re-throw rule. They are not the same thing.

Thanks for the clarification. I had the impression that the caddy book said to specifically go to the DZ with no retee, from what had gone before. And if it was therefore posted on the tee, that would say Paul ignored that message. Since it wasn't, then I agree. As I stated, I was confused, Yugely, by the notion that a clear message was right in front of them. That would have made no sense given what occurred, and the actions of the TD and Dana.
 
I would agree that the optional re-throw with penalty would (should!) always be an option. But I would guess that imaginary line gave you guys more trouble. ;)

Not at all ... we had no trouble with the rulings from among MPO, FPO, MPM, FPM, MPG, and MPS. None. :thmbup:We did hear a few comments about "not liking the fact that the island was basically the 10m circle (too small), and that the best option was to throw up & over, but no complaints nor issues regarding the imaginary line. That pin is so close to where the OB line was, that it was pretty clear where it was. Plus, if a player had gone OB there, they likely would have wanted the drop zone.

I'm just letting you know that your assertion that "just have 'must go to drop zone' on the sign or the caddy book doesn't solve the problem.
 
If you haven't, go listen to the Smash odd discussion on this. The approach it from a different angle and it's quite clear why Paul did what he did. Bhu by.

Thanks JV, Terry and Dana.
 
Smashboxx, man I hate auto correct. I'm quite capable of making myself look moronic without auto correct help, thank you.
 
This has been fun to read. Just so everyone is aware, I was aware of the situation, discussed it with Mike Krupicka and we made the decision and relayed this to Dana. As soon as the call came in I immediately told Mike my feelings and how the hole read in the caddy guide. The intention of the hole was to force players to go to the DZ to keep players progressing forward. That was part of the waiver, at least as I understood it with the PDGA. The caddy guide stated that players that throw OB from the tee should proceed to the drop zone for their next shot. It seemed pretty clear to me. In the future I will either force players to use a DZ with more commanding language or I will just allow players to use the rethrow option with the option of going to the DZ. No one would reasonably take the rethrow option on this hole, and the only reason Paul considered it was because of the ropes being moved by someone earlier in the week and the DZ looking less appealing.
 
Last night, Steve Dodge had a short podcast on Facebook. While he was doing his thing, someone posted a comment concerning Bradley Williams. Apparently something happened with him that was never answered. Some people were talking disciplinary action or something like that.
Does anyone know what happened?
 
What I will remember most about this provisional ordeal is Paul stepping up to the same tee pad the next day and almost ringing the chains. That may be one of the greatest disc golf shots I have ever seen. The kid is sick.
 

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