Legit Par 2's?

[duckychucky]

Back story: My course just added a back 9.
The first 9 holes had enough room (and enough
trees) that we have 2 different fairways on each
hole with red and blue tees on the wide fairways
and white and gold tees on the narrow fairways.
The new 9 is in a smaller plot of land and was
designed to have 2 tees, red and white.
Next year we are adding 9 more holes on a huge
piece of land with lots of elevation change and
I'm designing that 9 to have blue and gold tees.
So by next year we will have 27 holes with an 18 hole
layout designed for each of the 4 skill levels.

However, as I put in the "short course" I realized
that the red par 3's are short enough to be blue
par 2's and the white par 3 tees are short
enough to be par 2's for gold level players.
By giving each tee on the new 9, 2 different
levels and pars we have a challenging 18 hole
layout for all 4 levels now.

I don't have pics up yet, but check out the link
to the hole info and tell me if you think these
are legit par 2's for blue and gold level players.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=4669&mode=hi

 

[duckychucky]

The red 3's/blue 2's avg length is 166.
The white 3's/gold 2's avg length is 190.

 

[AndyJB]

Anything under 170 could be a par 2, but over that is kind of pushing it no matter your skill level. We have a par 2 at Cumberland Green that is a straight shot of about 168 feet...and it's still hard to get 2 on. It's up to you, the designer, of course, but I would be wary of par 2's.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Many Red and White tees around the country would likely be par 2s for Blue or Gold players respectively but that doesn't mean those tee signs should be labeled that way. Likewise, you don't see Red or White pars listed on Gold tee signs where a Gold par 5 might be a Red Par 7.

However, there's a difference between signage for day-to-day play and tournament play. Although it's not popular, if Blue or Gold players must play a set of Red or White tees in a tournament, lower par values could temporarily be listed on printed materials for reference and penalties. But why would the TD have blue or gold players playing those red or white tees unless they are the only tees on the course? Perhaps because they can help produce ratings for lower division players. But then, just leave the Red or White pars as the official pars for those holes to reduce confusion.

 

[duckychucky]

One of the main reasons I did this was in our league
bag tag rounds we like playing the blue and gold tees
on the front 9, and it became complicated documenting
which holes were played when you switch to red or
white on back 9. Now you can call any of the 4 levels
and play 18 holes.
When the next 9 is finished and we have a true 18 hole
layout for all 4, I may abandon the par 2 labels on the
short course, but for now I like it, although it seems as
if no one else does.

 

[prerube]

Tiki at the blockhouse during doubles is legit par 2. The holes are measured in inches.

 

[duckychucky]

Many Red and White tees around the country would likely be par 2s for Blue or Gold players respectively but that doesn't mean those tee signs should be labeled that way. Likewise, you don't see Red or White pars listed on Gold tee signs where a Gold par 5 might be a Red Par 7.
.

Why not? I wonder...
Many courses that are dismissed as pitch'n'putt could
be more exciting to play if labeled as par 2s for blue and
gold. Players refer to these holes as "duece or die" anyway
which means if you score a 3 you are losing a stroke to
the other players. If you are losing a stroke to those in
your skill level, isn't that one definition of a bogie?
And likewise wouldn't double labeling blue level par 3s as
red par 4s make playing less frustrating for rec players.
Why not let rec players know how they scored compared
to players of similiar skill even when on courses designed
for pros?
Bottom line is your score is what matters not par, but
knowing how you score against those IN YOUR LEVEL is
kinda nice to know.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Your rationale is why Super Class was created - give a par 3 (or higher) challenge to White, Blue and Gold players playing Red tees with Super Class discs rather than high tech discs. I just played the short tees at Ottawa Park in Toledo with a Zephyr when visiting family.

 

[duckychucky]

I think most players would rather play with their mids
and putters and consider it good practice for their
approach game than play with super class discs.

 

[Cgkdisc]

That may be. But it doesn't mean low pars should be posted on those tees for higher level players. If anything. it's discouraging for the beginners and Red players to see that the par is "really" 2 for several of their holes.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Here's a course designed for Red level with only Red level pars shown on the tee signs. However, pars for the other skill levels are shown on this map for reference: http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_files/552/2f9051e2.jpg

 

[duckychucky]

First of all thanks for the feedback, I have been debating
this concept with myself for some time and needed some
outside opinions.
To continue defending this concept, the holes are "really" par 3s for red level. Our scorecards explain the levels (red for beginners, gold for professionals, etc..) encouraging people to play from appropiate tees. I don't think it is discouraging to know that pros are A LOT better than beginners, it gives you something to work for.
As many have said before, sometimes par in disc golf is too
easy and gives a false sense of accomplishment, when
par should really give you an idea of how you play against
those with similar skill.
This concept helps noobs understand that the different
colored tees actually mean something. I think many beginners (and even people that have played for some time) don't understand the standard colors and what they mean.

 

[duckychucky]

Here's a course designed for Red level with only Red level pars shown on the tee signs. However, pars for the other skill levels are shown on this map for reference: http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_files/552/2f9051e2.jpg

That is interesting, although I'm not advocating coming up
with par for every level on every tee, that has to create
a lot of tweener holes. I think 2 pars can be done for most holes if you skip a level (red and blue share and white and gold share). According to the the PDGA par chart

http://www.pdga.com/documents/par-guidelines

there is a lot of overlap between par 4 red and par 3 blue, and a lot of overlap between par 4 white and par 3 gold. Of course the chart also says it doesn't reccomend par 2 holes...

 

[Cgkdisc]

In ball golf, there's one par posted for each color tee. That similar good practice I believe should be followed in disc golf for tee signs. For handicapping purposes in ball golf, there might be a different par listed for a few holes for a different skill level on ball golf scorecards. Since we primarily use scorecards for tournaments and not daily play, listing alternate pars on the map as shown above seems a reasonable option.

 

[duckychucky]

So if I stick to this plan do you think it would be best
to have the tees and tee signs be colored just red and
white and show the different pars only on scorecard?

 

[Cgkdisc]

Yes. Simply less confusing. It clearly indicates which tees were designed for their specific skill level even if players decide to play the other ones.

 

[kenjiac]

Chuck put the par down on your tees signs as whatever the par would be for the skill level that should be playing those tees. Don't confuse players that are playing tees appropriate to their skill with the pars of other skill level players. Your back 9 should only have red and maybe white tees and pars of 3 all around. When you develop that pre front 9 with the elevation changes and harder holes design them with only blue and gold tees. Each of your 4 tee levels (red,white, blue, & gold) will have 18 holes to play with. That back 9 is a bit too easy for anyone with some developed skills. I enjoyed playing them but it is a pitch and putt. Don't put par 2 down for the blue/gold players on those back 9. My $.02.

 

[duckychucky]

Hey Kenji, since you were here last we cleaned the short 9 up a bit and added the longer tees which approach the basket from different angles and are nice white level tees.
But here is my thinking, our "A" division players consider -6 a good round from red on the front 9, which is also what they are throwing with a good round from red on new back 9, so at least relative to our other holes they are well designed red holes.
Most of the "A" division guys in our club consider being +3 from blue (on front 9) a good round. Playing the new red tees on the short/back 9, our "A" guys have been getting lots of -6 rounds. Meaning if they were labeled as par 2s on the card for blue, they would be shooting +3 on the new 9, same score against par as on front 9, which makes them legit par 2 blues, at least relative to our course. It works out so nice I can't ignore it. Like I said before it makes it easier to track bagtag round if we have a full 18 hole layout for each level.
I think leaving the tee colors and tee signs just red and white but having the option to use the par 2 blue and gold on the scorecard shouldn't be too confusing. So far your reaction is the same as everyone else, which is why I'm asking what people think, but you gotta admit that they are par 2 for blue and gold you can park every hole unless you really have a bad shot.

 

[Steve West]

In ball golf, there's one par posted for each color tee...

Well, sort of. In ball golf each player can calculate their own individual par, based on their handicap. So, the "par" listed on the sign is just an input into a formula, not the score they would hope to get if they are playing well.

Grouping people into color groups and listing a par for each color is a cruder, but much simpler, way of telling each player what they should shoot for.

I've pondered putting expected scores for each color level on the signs. A 300 foot pinball hole might list:

Green 4.2
Red 3.9
White 3.6
Blue 3.3
Gold 3.0

So, if a beginner gets a 5, they know it's something that sometimes happens at their skill level. If a Blue player gets a 3, they know they've gained about .3 throws.

 

[Skunk]

I recently had played this course, http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=4262, that had legitimate par 2's I thought.

Unfortunately, there isn't any hole information on here. But there were a few holes that were marked 86, 94, 96...or something very close to that.