Mandos for course design

[KillerKoala777]

We recently changed Hole 2 at Brickyard Bayou and incorporated a Mando.

Hole 2's basket was about 15 feet from the backyard of a residence. Big arms were trying to constantly Ace this hole and kept throwing into this person's yard and damaging his garden or grip locking and throwing into the house across the street on the right. The hole was shortened to 202 feet, and a ring of bricks installed around the basket creating an Island Hole. This prevents throws from going onto this property, unless you throw 100 long by mistake. (No discs have gone in this yard since the change was implemented.)

A Mando was added on a telephone pole about 40 feet off the tee pad for 2 reasons.
1.) To take away the spike hyzer throw and make it more of a finesse shot.
2.) To help keep misthrows or grip locks from crossing the street and hitting the house on the other side. (which happened quite regularly).

I spoke to hundreds of players while installing the brick ring around the basket. I asked 2 specific questions. Where should the Drop Zone be, if you miss the Island? Do you agree with the Mando based on the reasons listed above?

Overwhelmingly, the response to the Mando question was "Yes, put the Mando on the telephone pole."

The Drop Zone was moved 3 times until we got it dialed in.

The moral of this story: Mandos can be a good thing when done properly and for the right reasons.

We added signage at the tee pad clearly explaining how the Island and Mando work. If you miss either the Mando or the Island, you go to the DZ with a 1 stroke penalty.

With all that being said, I still see groups throw the hole as if the Mando and Island features do not exist. They play it as a 202 foot Par 3 with no challenge whatsoever. When throwing the hole and honoring the Mando and Island, it is now quite a challenging hole. It can be a very easy Deuce or a very easy Bogey. More importantly, no discs have gone into the garden or into the house across the street, for over a month now.

I skimmed over the name of the course and about halfway through I realized I had played this hole! I was with a local who said to not worry about the island and ended up going about 50 past the basket and taking a par. I wish we would've played it as an island because that is way more interesting.

 

[BillFleming]

<stuff left off>

With all that being said, I still see groups throw the hole as if the Mando and Island features do not exist. They play it as a 202 foot Par 3 with no challenge whatsoever. When throwing the hole and honoring the Mando and Island, it is now quite a challenging hole. It can be a very easy Deuce or a very easy Bogey. More importantly, no discs have gone into the garden or into the house across the street, for over a month now.

It would be interesting to know if the groups 'ignoring' the Mando/island features are new-ish or casual players. They may not be aware of what mandos and islands are in the game. Might be they just know/care about throwing a disc and not much else. I've played with people who get on the tee, look for the basket, and throw....without ever taking a look at the tee sign. Mandos/OB/etc will never protect anything from those types of players...but, except in sanctioned rounds, you can't force people to read and obey the signs/rules.

 

[Binky Yutz]

just curious on the details of this drop zone. can you describe what the 3 different positions were? was it just different distances? what determined the final position?

Imagine the Brick Island Ring (approx 30 foot radius, or 60 foot diameter) as a clock face.

The initial DZ was set at 3 o'clock near the street down the right side of the hole. The problem with that DZ was that it was only a few feet from the edge of the island and basically a Circle 1 putt. Not that terribly difficult for a decent Putter. Which means no real consequence for missing the Island.

We moved the DZ to 5 o'clock and pushed it back to 48 feet from the basket or about 18 feet outside the Island. Still a makable distance, but not necessarily an easy putt. One could still take a 3 with the penalty, but will more than likely take a 4 on that hole. The logic being, there should be a consequence for missing the Island. The problem with that DZ was a lot of people were taking the shortest route to hole 3 from the DZ, which means they were walking down the fairway of hole 3 to get to the tee pad, instead of taking the original path to hole 3 which comes up behind the tee pad, and keeps everyone off of the fairway. Also, this DZ position was in the sun for the entire day.

We then moved the DZ to halfway between 9 and 10 o'clock and kept the distance at 48 feet. This DZ is only 15 feet from the original path to hole 3, which now makes it faster and easier to use the path, not the fairway, to access hole 3. Also the DZ is now under a clump of trees and is shaded the entire day after about 10:00 AM.

Taking a 3 on hole 2 is unusual. If one makes the Island on one's first throw, the putt is under 30 feet, and not terribly difficult to make. This results in a reward for making the Island in 1 throw. If one misses the Island, the majority of the time a 4 will be the result, and the consequence for missing the Island. It is an excellent Risk / Reward shot.

I have yet to sink a putt from the DZ and have taken many 4's on this hole. I have also taken many 2's, because landing the disc in a 60 foot circle from 202 feet is not that difficult, until you factor in the Mando. A flex putter or midrange throw works best for me. When I throw a fairway driver the disc fades out or cut rolls and misses the Island.

The overwhelming consensus is that people like the re-design, especially the property owner that no longer has to fish Frisbees out of his garden and yard.

 

[Awkward Accountant]

For competitions, safety, or to prevent upsetting neighbors, mandos are a tool which should be utilized. When they are placed on public courses that beginners play on to make the course more difficult, I do not personally agree with it. Maybe the course designer can play those lines with their friends or league but its silly to make Susie Lou who has 2 discs and can throw 75 feet throw a sharp anhyzer line through a narrow line.

 

[biscoe]

Imagine the Brick Island Ring (approx 30 foot radius, or 60 foot diameter) as a clock face.

The initial DZ was set at 3 o'clock near the street down the right side of the hole. The problem with that DZ was that it was only a few feet from the edge of the island and basically a Circle 1 putt. Not that terribly difficult for a decent Putter. Which means no real consequence for missing the Island.

We then moved the DZ to halfway between 9 and 10 o'clock and kept the distance at 48 feet. This DZ is only 15 feet from the original path to hole 3, which now makes it faster and easier to use the path, not the fairway, to access hole 3. Also the DZ is now under a clump of trees and is shaded the entire day after about 10:00 AM.

Taking a 3 on hole 2 is unusual. If one makes the Island on one's first throw, the putt is under 30 feet, and not terribly difficult to make. This results in a reward for making the Island in 1 throw. If one misses the Island, the majority of the time a 4 will be the result, and the consequence for missing the Island. It is an excellent Risk / Reward shot.

I have yet to sink a putt from the DZ and have taken many 4's on this hole. I have also taken many 2's, because landing the disc in a 60 foot circle from 202 feet is not that difficult, until you factor in the Mando. A flex putter or midrange throw works best for me. When I throw a fairway driver the disc fades out or cut rolls and misses the Island.

The overwhelming consensus is that people like the re-design, especially the property owner that no longer has to fish Frisbees out of his garden and yard.

IMO your drop zone was likely better from a scoring perspective when it was at circle's edge. The idea that you have yet to card a 3 from the new one is a fairly good indicator that the penalty for missing the island has become a de facto 2 strokes rather than one. Risk/reward only comes into play if there is a choice off the tee of playing the hole some other way than going for the island. Sounds like players have no other option to me which eliminates risk/reward calculations completely. Obviously the entire thing is a huge improvement over going in the neighbor's yard.

 

[txmxer]

IMO your drop zone was likely better from a scoring perspective when it was at circle's edge. The idea that you have yet to card a 3 from the new one is a fairly good indicator that the penalty for missing the island has become a de facto 2 strokes rather than one. Risk/reward only comes into play if there is a choice off the tee of playing the hole some other way than going for the island. Sounds like players have no other option to me which eliminates risk/reward calculations completely. Obviously the entire thing is a huge improvement over going in the neighbor's yard.

I was thinking along the same lines. This isn't risk/reward because there is no "layup" play. It's make the island or not.

And I agree that the design itself seems like good solution to the problem of errant throws.

 

[DavidSauls]

We have a number of drop zones at Stoney Hill. They're both for "island type" holes and places where OB leaves no safe lie (steep slope).

Established by trial & error, we found that it's easy to get them wrong.

I agree that 48' seems a bit far, particular if the hole ends up producing a lot of 2s and 4s, but few 3s. We call that a "donut" scoring spread, with a hole right in the middle.

 

[GMcAtee]

More mandos please!!!!

I need the laughter as I continue to ignore them.

 

[DavidSauls]

This does bring to mind a design consideration with mandos: the drop zone.

If the drop zone is near the mando, and the mando is at a distance that makes the drop zone shot boring (a "NAGS"), then even though the mando may serve a good purpose, it has that drawback.

So even if the drop zone makes sense for the hole (for whatever reasons), you'd like the drop zone to also be an interesting shot, and that's not always possible.

Not an issue for those drop zones that will rarely be missed (i.e., to prevent shots that are way off the standard flight path).

 

[Binky Yutz]

IMO your drop zone was likely better from a scoring perspective when it was at circle's edge. The idea that you have yet to card a 3 from the new one is a fairly good indicator that the penalty for missing the island has become a de facto 2 strokes rather than one. Risk/reward only comes into play if there is a choice off the tee of playing the hole some other way than going for the island. Sounds like players have no other option to me which eliminates risk/reward calculations completely. Obviously the entire thing is a huge improvement over going in the neighbor's yard.

My use of "Risk/Reward" was indeed incorrect. My point is, that if you make the Island you are rewarded. If you miss the Island you are going to be penalized. The hole actually gets parred quite often from the DZ, I just haven't done it yet. We played a Dubs round today at Brickyard with 4 groups, only 1 of 8 players missed the Island. The hole average was 2.5 for the 4 groups.

Yes, it is indeed a huge improvement over the old layout, and we can move the DZ at any time, if the majority of players feel it is too punitive. (although that was the entire point of locating it a 48 feet instead of 33 feet.)

 

[dreadlock86]

I think they are doing a pretty good job of hitting top notch courses where they are available. We just haven't gotten to that part of the schedule for the most part.
Elite this year:
Idlewild
The Beast
Pickard
Toboggan
Smuggler's
Maple Hill

Silver this Year:
Harmony Bends
Milo McIver
DeLaveaga
Lake Marshall Lions
Whatever they play in Pittsburgh

i forgot about Idlewild. and i hadn't considered the silver series (i haven't watched or followed most of them). now that i look at it, it's an impressive list. i guess my bias toward rugged courses in the middle of nowhere was driving my thoughts there. that and not really enjoying watching the courses at Vegas, Jonesboro, the Preserve, or Emporia. maybe my impression is from some of those courses being new events that are now filling out the pro tour.

 

[Binky Yutz]

This does bring to mind a design consideration with mandos: the drop zone.

If the drop zone is near the mando, and the mando is at a distance that makes the drop zone shot boring (a "NAGS"), then even though the mando may serve a good purpose, it has that drawback.

An excellent point and now that you mention it, this may have also been at the back of my mind, while talking to others about the DZ.

On this particular hole the DZ is nowhere near the mando or the tee pad. One must walk past the basket slightly and turn left. Based on the clock face, the tee pad is halfway between 5 and 6, and the DZ is now between 9 and 10.

Regardless of the varying opinions about DZ placement, I, and most everyone that plays Brickyard as their home course, feel good about how the hole plays. It is a very fun and challenging hole now.

Since I asked for ideas from hundreds of locals and based the choices on the consensus of everyone involved, I see no reason for anyone to question those choices.
(I do understand how these forums operate, everyone has an opinion.)

When you are the one out there, doing the work, then you get a say so. I notice this phenomenon a lot at our course, those that do nothing to improve the course or keep it clean, are the first to offer criticisms of how they would have done things differently. Well, stop talking about it and get out there and get it done!

One more thing, would the discer that is constantly littering the course with their Bud Light cans, please start using the trashcans on Holes 1, 5, 7, 9, 10, 12, 14, & 16. If you have room to carry it in, you have room to carry it to the next trashcan.

I will step down off of my soapbox now!

 

[txmxer]

An excellent point and now that you mention it, this may have also been at the back of my mind, while talking to others about the DZ.

On this particular hole the DZ is nowhere near the mando or the tee pad. One must walk past the basket slightly and turn left. Based on the clock face, the tee pad is halfway between 5 and 6, and the DZ is now between 9 and 10.

Regardless of the varying opinions about DZ placement, I, and most everyone that plays Brickyard as their home course, feel good about how the hole plays. It is a very fun and challenging hole now.

Since I asked for ideas from hundreds of locals and based the choices on the consensus of everyone involved, I see no reason for anyone to question those choices.
(I do understand how these forums operate, everyone has an opinion.)

When you are the one out there, doing the work, then you get a say so. I notice this phenomenon a lot at our course, those that do nothing to improve the course or keep it clean, are the first to offer criticisms of how they would have done things differently. Well, stop talking about it and get out there and get it done!

One more thing, would the discer that is constantly littering the course with their Bud Light cans, please start using the trashcans on Holes 1, 5, 7, 9, 10, 12, 14, & 16. If you have room to carry it in, you have room to carry it to the next trashcan.

I will step down off of my soapbox now!

'saul good man!

 

[magictenor1]

I'm old and I began playing on object courses. The st course I ever played was 10 holes in the campus of souther miss. The 1st 4 holes were all mangos. Not for safety but an intregal part of the design. Also interestingly we playedthem as actual mandatory in if you missed it you had to go back and get it. No drop zone no options

 

[magictenor1]

Bad typos lol. 1st course. Mandos at southern miss

 

[magictenor1]

We were playing with actual frisbees back then lol

 

[txmxer]

We were playing with actual frisbees back then lol

Sounds like my DG experience in the 80's. We played in a park with Whamos and threw at oak trees.

Probably played like that a handful of times. Skip forward to 2020 and a friend tells me they play DG every week. I told him I only have one disc--my old Whamo from the 80's. He laughed and hooked me up with a starter set of actual golf discs.

 

[magictenor1]

I played a lot of object dg back in the day then didn't play for 10 12 years. Around 2000 I hear about a dg course with baskets and I show up with my 165g whamo on the 1st tee. Got some strange looks lol. Went right to the clubhouse and bought some discs

 

[txmxer]

I played a lot of object dg back in the day then didn't play for 10 12 years. Around 2000 I hear about a dg course with baskets and I show up with my 165g whamo on the 1st tee. Got some strange looks lol. Went right to the clubhouse and bought some discs

That was almost me. I was invited to play and told the guy I've only got one disc (my old Whamo from the 80s).

Fortunately he hooked my up with a starter set.