Mandos for course design

[txmxer]

They will know going in that the property is or isn't going to be world class or not. Not every piece of land can provide a 5 star course. It's simply not possible. So is it their "failure"? Never said it was a pass fail test. But I'm sure they knew going in that the course was never going to be top notch in the first place.

If you are limited by space and few trees in a small park, well your likely never going to get more then a 3.5 no matter what. The land/terrain/trees is the biggest factor for sure how good a course can be.

That's not how you put the poll together.

What you did was lame.

 

[DavidSauls]

The poll, thread title and initial post said nothing about DGPT events, or world-class courses. I take the question to apply to mandos on any course.

(Do any of the Top 10 or Top 25 have mandos? I can think of some excellent courses that have/had them -- maybe not world class, but 4.5-class, and with plenty of folks rating them as 5s.)

 

[aclay]

That's what course design is.

"Where" and "How" are limited by how the tee and the target are placed; and by the trees, hills, wind, water - and OB and Mandos - along the way.

An early form of disc golf mandated the type of throw (forehand, chicken wing, etc.) to use on every hole, as well as the route the throw had to take. It was a more complete test of skill, because the player had to be able to execute many different kinds of throws.

I think this misses a key point: Part (some would say a large part) of disc golf (and sports in general) is mental. Using good judgment to make risk-reward decisions and being able to execute physically in high-stress situations. If course designers are allowed to dictate how I approach a hole, they have eliminated much of that mental game. Players should have the option to play the riskier line and suffer the natural consequences of a poor shot or poor decision rather than being forced to play one particular line or shot. If I think I can score better (the object of the game) by throwing through a wall of trees rather than throwing longer to go around the trees, why shouldn't I be able to try that?

 

[smoothplayer]

The poll, thread title and initial post said nothing about DGPT events, or world-class courses. I take the question to apply to mandos on any course.

(Do any of the Top 10 or Top 25 have mandos? I can think of some excellent courses that have/had them -- maybe not world class, but 4.5-class, and with plenty of folks rating them as 5s.)

It's fine to discuss the topic for any course as well. I initially brought it up because I saw the 19 mandos at Glendavier (however your spell it).

 

[Steve West]

I think this misses a key point: Part (some would say a large part) of disc golf (and sports in general) is mental. Using good judgment to make risk-reward decisions and being able to execute physically in high-stress situations. If course designers are allowed to dictate how I approach a hole, they have eliminated much of that mental game. Players should have the option to play the riskier line and suffer the natural consequences of a poor shot or poor decision rather than being forced to play one particular line or shot. If I think I can score better (the object of the game) by throwing through a wall of trees rather than throwing longer to go around the trees, why shouldn't I be able to try that?

One purpose of mandos is to take away the obvious, easier, no-risk line. Then, you have to think.

I don't know of any designer who would use a mando to take away your right to choose to throw through a wall of trees.

Your logic is failing. Did you actually just come here to lash out at mandos because you are still sore about a penalty you took for trying to go up that open fairway on the wrong side of a mando you weren't aware of?

 

[aclay]

One purpose of mandos is to take away the obvious, easier, no-risk line. Then, you have to think.

I don't know of any designer who would use a mando to take away your right to choose to throw through a wall of trees.

Your logic is failing. Did you actually just come here to lash out at mandos because you are still sore about a penalty you took for trying to go up that open fairway on the wrong side of a mando you weren't aware of?

I am not mad about anything. I play disc golf for fun. I am pretty mediocre at it, but my financial well-being is not attached, so that's OK. I have an OPINION on this subject. Many people agree with my general opinion of mandos, but because we are talking about something subjective, there is no right or wrong; there are simply different points of view.

I don't understand your decision to lash out at me for expressing my opinion. I don't think I launched a personal attack on you; if you perceived it as such, I apologize; that was not my intent, and I should have stated my case better.

I have read a lot of your posts; as the old saying goes, you likely have forgotten more about disc golf that I will ever know. That, however, does not make you infallible; and where opinions are concerned, it certainly does not mean that yours is the "right" opinion.

I hope we can have civil discourse on this subject.

 

[Monocacy]

For a permanent course:
They very seldom make anything safer.

If for some reason there needs to be one try to make it basically unmissable.

This reminds me of Patapsco Valley hole 7, a challenging 629' adventure (long-long). There is a mando that protects the hole 8 teepad, but the only time this mando comes into play is if a tee shot lands waaaaay off the fairway right. Like, probably worse than I have ever thrown on that hole, which is saying a lot.

So, basically unmissible by ordinary mortals.

If someone ends up way right, the mando forces you to chip back to the fairway rather than blasting a prayer over hole 8's teepad. I saw Big Jerm end up in this position with a roller, and then get in position to save par with an amazing FH cut roller.

Most folks who play the hole probably have no idea there is a mando, especially since the mando is way right and you want your drive to finish left.

 

[tallpaul]

aclay; I think the smiley face means Steve was just jokin' at you.

...Mandos; I usually played them if I knew they were there. Played some courses with all pavement as mando; just of my own accord.

As a not huge arm; mando that forces a placement shot, is perhaps to my advantage.

 

[dreadlock86]

not the point of this thread but i think it bears mentioning...

the pro tour does not and i expect probably never will take place on the best of the best courses. i'm never looking at the courses on the pro tour and thinking about how badly i want to go play there, except Maple Hill.

 

[aclay]

aclay; I think the smiley face means Steve was just jokin' at you.

...Mandos; I usually played them if I knew they were there. Played some courses with all pavement as mando; just of my own accord.

As a not huge arm; mando that forces a placement shot, is perhaps to my advantage.

Sorry if I misinterpreted. Between not being much of an emoji guy and being in the middle of a family medical crisis, I'm not on my game.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Sorry if I misinterpreted. Between not being much of an emoji guy and being in the middle of a family medical crisis, I'm not on my game.

Hope the family medical crisis works out as well as can be expected.

 

[Steve West]

Sorry if I misinterpreted. Between not being much of an emoji guy and being in the middle of a family medical crisis, I'm not on my game.

No, my bad.

The image of someone having a grudge against a design element amused me so much that I thought it worth joking about. It was not meant to be a real question. I knew better and did it anyway.

Sorry.

 

[aclay]

No, my bad.

The image of someone having a grudge against a design element amused me so much that I thought it worth joking about. It was not meant to be a real question. I knew better and did it anyway.

Sorry.

No worries. I am clearly off my game because I usually joke about anything. Thankfully the medical crisis appears to have passed.

 

[biscoe]

not the point of this thread but i think it bears mentioning...

the pro tour does not and i expect probably never will take place on the best of the best courses. i'm never looking at the courses on the pro tour and thinking about how badly i want to go play there, except Maple Hill.

I think they are doing a pretty good job of hitting top notch courses where they are available. We just haven't gotten to that part of the schedule for the most part.
Elite this year:
Idlewild
The Beast
Pickard
Toboggan
Smuggler's
Maple Hill

Silver this Year:
Harmony Bends
Milo McIver
DeLaveaga
Lake Marshall Lions
Whatever they play in Pittsburgh

 

[ejvogie]

I think they are doing a pretty good job of hitting top notch courses where they are available. We just haven't gotten to that part of the schedule for the most part.
Elite this year:
Idlewild
The Beast
Pickard
Toboggan
Smuggler's
Maple Hill

Silver this Year:
Harmony Bends
Milo McIver
DeLaveaga
Lake Marshall Lions
Whatever they play in Pittsburgh

As long as it doesn't flood out again :|

 

[hanger129]

I think this misses a key point: Part (some would say a large part) of disc golf (and sports in general) is mental. Using good judgment to make risk-reward decisions and being able to execute physically in high-stress situations. If course designers are allowed to dictate how I approach a hole, they have eliminated much of that mental game. Players should have the option to play the riskier line and suffer the natural consequences of a poor shot or poor decision rather than being forced to play one particular line or shot. If I think I can score better (the object of the game) by throwing through a wall of trees rather than throwing longer to go around the trees, why shouldn't I be able to try that?

So would you say that tunnel shots are a bad design?

I used to be very anti-mandos but now I'm a little more receptive to them, particularly after watching the Portland Open this year. I think they should be used sparingly, and holes that incorporate them should still allow players more than one route to the basket. If you're of the camp that "disc golf should distinguish itself from ball golf as much as possible" camp, then I think mandos, used creatively, can be a unique opportunity to do that. For courses designed on golf courses, I think they're almost required in order to make the design interesting for both the players and spectators (in the scenario of pro events, I realize the discussion is about courses in general).

Watching the Portland Open last year, I had the thought that it might even be cool to implement "rotating mandos" in tournament play, meaning the hole takes away a particular shot in each round. Over the course of a 3-round tournament, a player will need to display a wider range of shots to score well. I admit it's a little gimmicky but I think it could be interesting if done well.

 

[aclay]

So would you say that tunnel shots are a bad design?

I used to be very anti-mandos but now I'm a little more receptive to them, particularly after watching the Portland Open this year. I think they should be used sparingly, and holes that incorporate them should still allow players more than one route to the basket. If you're of the camp that "disc golf should distinguish itself from ball golf as much as possible" camp, then I think mandos, used creatively, can be a unique opportunity to do that. For courses designed on golf courses, I think they're almost required in order to make the design interesting for both the players and spectators (in the scenario of pro events, I realize the discussion is about courses in general).

Watching the Portland Open last year, I had the thought that it might even be cool to implement "rotating mandos" in tournament play, meaning the hole takes away a particular shot in each round. Over the course of a 3-round tournament, a player will need to display a wider range of shots to score well. I admit it's a little gimmicky but I think it could be interesting if done well.

Quite the contrary. I really like tunnel shots. Not that I am good at them, but I like them as a design. However, I want the option of shooting straight down the tunnel OR going through a gap (small or not) in the trees. My risk-reward decision would revolve around how far I think I can throw straight vs. how likely I am to get out of the tunnel and how far that throw will travel.

 

[Binky Yutz]

We recently changed Hole 2 at Brickyard Bayou and incorporated a Mando.

Hole 2's basket was about 15 feet from the backyard of a residence. Big arms were trying to constantly Ace this hole and kept throwing into this person's yard and damaging his garden or grip locking and throwing into the house across the street on the right. The hole was shortened to 202 feet, and a ring of bricks installed around the basket creating an Island Hole. This prevents throws from going onto this property, unless you throw 100 long by mistake. (No discs have gone in this yard since the change was implemented.)

A Mando was added on a telephone pole about 40 feet off the tee pad for 2 reasons.
1.) To take away the spike hyzer throw and make it more of a finesse shot.
2.) To help keep misthrows or grip locks from crossing the street and hitting the house on the other side. (which happened quite regularly).

I spoke to hundreds of players while installing the brick ring around the basket. I asked 2 specific questions. Where should the Drop Zone be, if you miss the Island? Do you agree with the Mando based on the reasons listed above?

Overwhelmingly, the response to the Mando question was "Yes, put the Mando on the telephone pole."

The Drop Zone was moved 3 times until we got it dialed in.

The moral of this story: Mandos can be a good thing when done properly and for the right reasons.

We added signage at the tee pad clearly explaining how the Island and Mando work. If you miss either the Mando or the Island, you go to the DZ with a 1 stroke penalty.

With all that being said, I still see groups throw the hole as if the Mando and Island features do not exist. They play it as a 202 foot Par 3 with no challenge whatsoever. When throwing the hole and honoring the Mando and Island, it is now quite a challenging hole. It can be a very easy Deuce or a very easy Bogey. More importantly, no discs have gone into the garden or into the house across the street, for over a month now.

 

[chevis]

Where should the Drop Zone be, if you miss the Island?

The Drop Zone was moved 3 times until we got it dialed in.

just curious on the details of this drop zone. can you describe what the 3 different positions were? was it just different distances? what determined the final position?

 

[Rastnav]

We recently changed Hole 2 at Brickyard Bayou and incorporated a Mando.

Hole 2's basket was about 15 feet from the backyard of a residence. Big arms were trying to constantly Ace this hole and kept throwing into this person's yard and damaging his garden or grip locking and throwing into the house across the street on the right. The hole was shortened to 202 feet, and a ring of bricks installed around the basket creating an Island Hole. This prevents throws from going onto this property, unless you throw 100 long by mistake. (No discs have gone in this yard since the change was implemented.)

A Mando was added on a telephone pole about 40 feet off the tee pad for 2 reasons.
1.) To take away the spike hyzer throw and make it more of a finesse shot.
2.) To help keep misthrows or grip locks from crossing the street and hitting the house on the other side. (which happened quite regularly).

I spoke to hundreds of players while installing the brick ring around the basket. I asked 2 specific questions. Where should the Drop Zone be, if you miss the Island? Do you agree with the Mando based on the reasons listed above?

Overwhelmingly, the response to the Mando question was "Yes, put the Mando on the telephone pole."

The Drop Zone was moved 3 times until we got it dialed in.

The moral of this story: Mandos can be a good thing when done properly and for the right reasons.

We added signage at the tee pad clearly explaining how the Island and Mando work. If you miss either the Mando or the Island, you go to the DZ with a 1 stroke penalty.

With all that being said, I still see groups throw the hole as if the Mando and Island features do not exist. They play it as a 202 foot Par 3 with no challenge whatsoever. When throwing the hole and honoring the Mando and Island, it is now quite a challenging hole. It can be a very easy Deuce or a very easy Bogey. More importantly, no discs have gone into the garden or into the house across the street, for over a month now.

With this as an example, I would think the idea that a mandatory isn't useful for safety purposes is either a vast overstatement or incomplete.

We've probably all seen mandos whose only clear intent is safety, that essentially do nothing to increase it. Placing a mando just to the side of an area you don't wish a disc to be thrown does not prevent a disc from being thrown there, and frequently does very little to mitigate the risk. Hole 1 on my home course has a mando on a tree about 40 feet off the tee, essentially in line with the tee pad and just to the left of a walking path coming into the park. While there is a possible line to the basket right of that, it wouldn't be chosen often. The real issue is a late release on the turnover shot, the shot which is the best option off the tee. The mando is a fig leaf, and a small one at that.

Hole design, however, and how it fits into the overall layout of the property, seems like it is integral to safety. Mandos seem like they could be a crucial part of that overall design process. Shifting the possible good lines by, say, 45 degrees could make a huge difference in how often dangerous throws are actually made.

Does this mean mandos are the preferred method of doing this? I wouldn't think so, but they may be a necessary, and very useful, part of the designers toolkit. This would be especially true when a course has undergone changes, for whatever reason. Or even potentially when a course will change over time, such as various trees and bushes getting larger.