Need Form check & Analysis please

[SmileyBoy]

1) I felt hella frustrated with this due to lots of off-balance.
2) Off-balance issue.
3) Doesn't look same at all vs how Seabas does it. His looks smooth and easy. Mine is just some struggle.
4) Didn't feel anything in this exercise.
5) My **** right-lower back hurts a lot still. Not healing at all (cry face) (hurts when pulling)

 

[SmileyBoy]

6) My quads are sore. On Friday, 4 rounds and on Saturday, 3 rounds. I am quad dominant as well

 

[SmileyBoy]

I'm also curious if you do Swivel Stairs power stanced or with other posture issues like I used to.

You almost certainly have to attack it head on. There's no shortcut. Double Dragon is a top-tier training move.

Can't record swivel stairs video. Don't have that kind of tripod with me that can make my phone look down more than right now.

I also don't want anyone else to record me doing swivel stairs

 

[Brychanus]

I can come back to the details but I want to go after this first:

1) I felt hella frustrated with this due to lots of off-balance.
2) Off-balance issue.
3) Doesn't look same at all vs how Seabas does it. His looks smooth and easy. Mine is just some struggle.
4) Didn't feel anything in this exercise.
5) My **** right-lower back hurts a lot still. Not healing at all (cry face) (hurts when pulling)
6) My quads are sore. On Friday, 4 rounds and on Saturday, 3 rounds. I am quad dominant as well

1) Understandable. Remember that I'm probably just as impatient as you are.
2) As I (and probably SW) expected.
3) Recall that I did say:

1. Motor learning: I know you really don't want to hear this, but I'm not a gambling man and I can still guarantee you that you won't fix this in one day. Think of drills as a treatment or catchup program for your body. It's going to take many doses over time. You have had thousands of doses of lifting for power, and you are still adding more. You have almost no doses (or maybe exactly zero) of swinging for power in the correct golf stance. It would probably take a motor learning equivalent of a miracle to suddenly get it right each time. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I haven't found a single case of spontaneous recovery in the form critiques. And yes, I've gone looking for it.

I can put it in lifter terms: would you expect your 10-rep bench press to go from 150 lbs. to 400 lbs. in one day? That's about the size of the form change we're talking about even though we're not talking about muscular strength.

SW shares this video sometimes. As a neuroscientist I can confirm that the gist here is right:


4) Well, it seems like you were feeling frustrated. Try not to get too in your head during the drill and expect to suck at first. If you're focusing on anything, just keep letting your CoG swing back and forth in the sequence and work on the flow and range of motion as SW. The "kicks" should swing kinda directly toward the target and directly away from the target. Your arm swings should "backswing" similarly forward and back away from the target somewhere between belly button and sternum (like door frame drill). You want to feel coiled up into the rear side and a bit of stretch through your oblique slings/lats each way. My DD got significantly better over time, and remember that sleeping is an important part of consolidating motor learning. So you literally cannot fix it in a day. Remember that the point isn't to "win" the drill the first time you do it - it's to learn to do it well enough that it starts to improve you and your swing over time. Basically, once my swings started feeling more like the balance in DD, they started improving - not the other way around.

SW also once told me to work on DD when I was hurt before, and I still do that when I'm taking breaks from throwing. It really, really helps.

5) You might want to shut down and heal. I've kept throwing too much past a body limit twice, and it was bad for my body AND my form. That should seem obvious but some of us need to hear it, and sometimes we push past a limit without knowing until its too late. Then your body starts doing even more weird **** and it can be harder to improve.

6) 7 rounds in two days with a hurt back? I know you are a young soldier, but see (5) above.

A bet
You know what? I'll be a betting man. I bet you 100 internet points that if you worked on Double Dragon for a week relaxed just letting it help retrain your balance and sequence and leverage and don't throw, it'll be more productive when you come back to throw. Oh, and DD is good at battling the "quad dominant" thing too. Let the drill do some of the work for you. Your brain and body will catch up. Relax.

Can't record swivel stairs video. Don't have that kind of tripod with me that can make my phone look down more than right now.

I also don't want anyone else to record me doing swivel stairs

Sometimes doing things that make us psychologically uncomfortable are the best things for us. <3

Also, one last "big picture" thing. It took a while before the drills started to give my body the feel for a "good" lower effort swing. You'll have a lot of bad swings on the way to good swings if you allow yourself to break the power stance. I'll say it again: you're basically learning an entirely different way to throw the disc.

 

[SmileyBoy]

That's motivational, thank you.

Doctor checked my issue and told me to rest for 2 weeks or more to let the muscles that got strained/hurt or broken apart to heal. The only thing I can do for now is just putting because it doesn't hurt. I'll get back to DD after fully healed and have fun with it.

 

[SmileyBoy]

I want to confirm one thing.

Hip and shoulder separation for backhand is bad? If so, I blame myself for trying to keep my hips in closed stance and twisting my upper body to reach out with my disc in order to throw. I have to stay off from disc golf for 2 weeks or more if 2 weeks isn't enough to heal the lower back injury.

Hip and shoulder separation is good for forehand?

 

[RistoS]

I want to confirm one thing.

Hip and shoulder separation for backhand is bad?

It's important for backhand power from what I understand, so opposite.

As for the cause of your injury, it's likely the pronounced left stagger (with slight off-time) causing too much strain on exactly where your pain is. According to orthopedic osteopath Joonas Merelä (Team Finland coach), it's among the most common bracing issues he's been seeing. Hips can still be closed with less stagger than what you've been doing.

https://youtu.be/Cx7SlcPZHu8?t=99 (he notes the case in this video clip is an extreme example)

 

[SmileyBoy]

Left stagger?
Slight off-time?

What's that? *Curious*

Of, now I understand. Left stagger aka plant leg is planted more to the left instead of forward. That video is hella extreme example of it.

So that means once I fix this and not have a off-time plant, everything will be okay, probably?

Plant leg foot heel in line with rear leg toes is the correct position to be with legs?

Once I'm healed up, I'll work on fixing this habit as well so that I won't be off-time anymore.

Thank you

 

[Brychanus]

I want to confirm one thing.

Hip and shoulder separation for backhand is bad? If so, I blame myself for trying to keep my hips in closed stance and twisting my upper body to reach out with my disc in order to throw. I have to stay off from disc golf for 2 weeks or more if 2 weeks isn't enough to heal the lower back injury.

Hip and shoulder separation is good for forehand?

Happy healing - sometimes a forced rest is just the whack the system needs.

Hip & shoulder separation: feel free to share a source b/c I'm curious if that idea is making the rounds somewhere.

You definitely want separation in terms of space and time: the shoulder should lag behind physically from the target, and in time behind the front hip starting to clear. In reality it happens in a very short period of time. But what you're describing sounds like a consequence of power stance to me & I had it too - if you are not shifting to swing "inside" your posture, you're probably either tipping or extending poorly off the rear side with the front hip opening too early. That tends to force you to swing more effortfully through the upper body to make up for the inefficient transfer.

Instead, you want to land with the front hip still closed (internally rotated). In my experience, it's basically impossible to do this correctly from horse or power stance because the rear leg is forcing the pelvis open to the target early, so you either (1) get that front hip itself too open (externally rotated), or (2) minimally get the pelvis too open and even though the front hip is closed (internally rotated), you have to put more muscle into it through the upper body because you can't get as abrupt a shift and crush. So your ground force reaction is weaker and you get more muscling.

Simon is getting pulled taut through the upper body as he is about to drop (Hershyzer, Ride the Bull) off the rear leg on the right. That is what's creating maximum shoulder/hip separation (Door frame drills). On the left, he lands coming off the rear leg in a fast Crush because he is in athletic and not horse stance posture (what you need to address with DD, Pratt drill, Door Frame Drill getting the pressure onto the instep before dropping off the frame will make more sense to you). As soon as Simon's plant toes hit the ground, his legs start resisting collapse against his weight, which is the same process that provides leverage through the front hip to lead the swing. That means that by the time his upper body has to do any work, it's basically just unloading that elastic tension created by the peak separation.

By the way, not sure if this is good wisdom for you, but thought I'd share given your back pain. I've been spending just the last 4 weeks or so working on just this 2x a week. I can confirm that the better I'm moving off the rear leg into the crush in athletic and not power stance posture, the fresher my body feels overall and the less likely my lower back is to hurt the next day. I worry less about distance and more about the efficiency & balance in the shift in every throw. Then I mix in some at higher momentum/bigger pump/more effort before I get tired and see if I'm still able to hit the move as I spool up the power and commit it into the shot. I seem to be learning the move faster that way per session overall. I also need less effort to reach each target distance each week. Learning to beat the power stance is hard but it's worth it.

 

[SmileyBoy]

Happy healing - sometimes a forced rest is just the whack the system needs.

Thank you

Hip & shoulder separation: feel free to share a source b/c I'm curious if that idea is making the rounds somewhere.

Before I came to here on march 27, 2023. I asked for form review in one of disc golf discord server. I received the advise to have more hip & shoulder separation because the disc was already released but hips weren't rotated at all, basically upper body was ahead of lower body aka lower body was lagging behind. So during that March 27 day, I focused on forcing my hips to stay closed and land closed on both legs aka rear leg & plant leg closed, not internally closed and not open.

That day, something happened and I injured myself so I'm thinking that something definitely went wrong there. Ever since then, that bad habit that caused the injury was stuck with me and I kept using it without wanting to use it which delayed the healing for the injury. My body slowly started to reverse the changes due to the pain and slowly started to go back to how it was before based on comfortable zone it felt before. Probably muscle memory doing it's work once I stopped focusing on how I should land, how my feet should be and how my hips should be. I stopped focusing on all that and my body started to keep my rear leg open during x-step and plant leg more to the left side. Since I often need to throw hyzerflips, my body plants my leg more to the left side instead of it being inline with rear leg toe. I dog know how it looks like if I'm throwing a flat shot. I won't make a video about this anyway because after recovery, I want to focus on getting my lower body to work correctly and be part of the swing.

You definitely want separation in terms of space and time: the shoulder should lag behind physically from the target, and in time behind the front hip starting to clear. In reality it happens in a very short period of time. But what you're describing sounds like a consequence of power stance to me & I had it too - if you are not shifting to swing "inside" your posture, you're probably either tipping or extending poorly off the rear side with the front hip opening too early. That tends to force you to swing more effortfully through the upper body to make up for the inefficient transfer.


I'll definitely check out all door frame drills part 1-4 and DD drill. Since it is really difficult for me to incorporate my lower body into the throw for unknown reasons. Probably because I've learned so much bad habits that the mind is thinking about bad habits unconsciously while I'm trying to consciously fix something.

It's going to be hell of a struggle anyways. For now, I won't be able to play for 2 weeks and even after I'm rested, I won't be able to go out and throw because the injury might come back due to bad habits so I will need to do drills. The longer I do drills and not throw plastic, eventually muscle memory will forget bad habits probably or learn good habits. I'm not sure but it's going to be hell of a ride here.

So yeah, can't play for a long time with friends just when good weathers came out and disc golf season started. I probably won't be able to compete either that happens at the end of the summer which is coming in 3 months 14 days.

Edit: I had to start activating my and and glutes to take a load off the injury a little bit. This means that my stomach area and butt were very tense and not relaxed. Abs activated, butt clenched as hard as possible.

I want to go back to relaxed mode after I'm fully healed.

 

[Brychanus]

Thank you

Before I came to here on march 27, 2023. I asked for form review in one of disc golf discord server. I received the advise to have more hip & shoulder separation because the disc was already released but hips weren't rotated at all, basically upper body was ahead of lower body aka lower body was lagging behind. So during that March 27 day, I focused on forcing my hips to stay closed and land closed on both legs aka rear leg & plant leg closed, not internally closed and not open.

That day, something happened and I injured myself so I'm thinking that something definitely went wrong there. Ever since then, that bad habit that caused the injury was stuck with me and I kept using it without wanting to use it which delayed the healing for the injury. My body slowly started to reverse the changes due to the pain and slowly started to go back to how it was before based on comfortable zone it felt before. Probably muscle memory doing it's work once I stopped focusing on how I should land, how my feet should be and how my hips should be. I stopped focusing on all that and my body started to keep my rear leg open during x-step and plant leg more to the left side. Since I often need to throw hyzerflips, my body plants my leg more to the left side instead of it being inline with rear leg toe. I dog know how it looks like if I'm throwing a flat shot. I won't make a video about this anyway because after recovery, I want to focus on getting my lower body to work correctly and be part of the swing.

You definitely want separation in terms of space and time: the shoulder should lag behind physically from the target, and in time behind the front hip starting to clear. In reality it happens in a very short period of time. But what you're describing sounds like a consequence of power stance to me & I had it too - if you are not shifting to swing "inside" your posture, you're probably either tipping or extending poorly off the rear side with the front hip opening too early. That tends to force you to swing more effortfully through the upper body to make up for the inefficient transfer.


I'll definitely check out all door frame drills part 1-4 and DD drill. Since it is really difficult for me to incorporate my lower body into the throw for unknown reasons. Probably because I've learned so much bad habits that the mind is thinking about bad habits unconsciously while I'm trying to consciously fix something.

It's going to be hell of a struggle anyways. For now, I won't be able to play for 2 weeks and even after I'm rested, I won't be able to go out and throw because the injury might come back due to bad habits so I will need to do drills. The longer I do drills and not throw plastic, eventually muscle memory will forget bad habits probably or learn good habits. I'm not sure but it's going to be hell of a ride here.

So yeah, can't play for a long time with friends just when good weathers came out and disc golf season started. I probably won't be able to compete either that happens at the end of the summer which is coming in 3 months 14 days.

Edit: I had to start activating my and and glutes to take a load off the injury a little bit. This means that my stomach area and butt were very tense and not relaxed. Abs activated, butt clenched as hard as possible.

I want to go back to relaxed mode after I'm fully healed.

I certainly had a lot of trouble getting my lower body into it. Power stance was a big issue and as you can tell I think it's so fundamental it's worth attacking aggressively over time, especially for lifter guys and gals. Rhythm and heavy momentum and drop + swing etc. all needed work. Leg action needed swivel stairs and Elephant walk. A lot of the lower body action gets easier once you are more in athletic balance - I had to focus on it in each of those drills and it has gradually gotten better. You can cheat yourself by doing drills kinda or fully power stanced without realizing it.

 

[SmileyBoy]

How to get rid of anterior pelvic tilt?

Is there a video for golf or disc golf or article writing about how to get rid of anterior pelvic tilt and how to have a straight back for better posture?

It I just stand up normally and walk normally. I have anterior pelvic tilt. Seems like it but it actually might be natural spine alignment. If I lay down on the floor, I can't get my hand under my back easily and if I engage my abs, my lower back is entirely touching the ground so I can't put my hand under it at all.

Is anterior pelvic tilt bad for posture?
If I get rid of anterior pelvic tilt, it's going to make some things easier?
How do I throw hyzer with straight back?
How do I throw spike hyzer with straight back?

Also what do you think of Ryan Sheldon forehand video, where he is giving advice on how to get better forehand technique, what to practice and how to not tear UCL. My elbow is lagging behind a lot. I never paid attention to it but yeah. It was pointed out.

Also I want to know what kind of grips can I test in forehand. I heard that the FH grip plays a big role to avoid elbow pain. False or correct? I use stacked finger grip on FH and death gripping the disc.

 

[SmileyBoy]

Also what do you think of Ryan Sheldon forehand video, where he is giving advice on how to get better forehand technique, what to practice and how to not tear UCL. My elbow is lagging behind a lot. I never paid attention to it but yeah. It was pointed out.

Couldn't edit so adding the link here



(I still suffer from elbow pain sometimes so I need to fix FH technique as well.)

 

[SmileyBoy]

Tested out chatgpt and asked it to answer some questions.

Me:

Regarding disc golf backhand throw, I death grip my disc from reachback and elbow the door which causes the disc to rip out from my hands and creating a loud snap. If I grip it too firmly or loosely, it will rip out from my fingers too fast which causes me to miss the line I wanted to throw. Is it fine to death grip the backhand throw? I do this for distance shots and it depends on the situation and how far off I am from the basket or idea landing spot from throw.

ChatGPT:

It's not recommended to use a death grip on the backhand throw in disc golf. A death grip can cause tension in your arm and hand, which can limit your power and accuracy, and also increase the risk of injury.

Instead, you should aim for a firm, but relaxed grip on the disc during your backhand throw. This will allow for a smoother release and better control over the disc. You can experiment with different grip pressures to find what works best for you, but it's important to avoid gripping the disc too tightly, as this can cause the disc to slip out of your hand too quickly and affect your throw.

To prevent the disc from slipping out of your hand too fast, try using a smooth, controlled release instead of elbowing the door. This will allow you to maintain control over the disc and release it at the right time for maximum distance and accuracy. Additionally, focusing on your form and technique can help improve your backhand throw and reduce the need to rely on a death grip for distance shots

Me:

How do I use smooth, controlled release instead of elbowing the door?

ChatGPT:

To achieve a smooth, controlled release in your backhand throw, you should focus on using your body to generate power, rather than relying on just your arm. Here are some tips:

Focus on your footwork: Start with a good, balanced stance and use your lower body to transfer weight from your back foot to your front foot as you make your throw. This will help you generate more power and control.

Use a loose grip: Instead of a death grip, use a loose grip on the disc. This will allow for a smoother release and prevent the disc from ripping out of your hand too quickly.

Keep your elbow close to your body: Instead of elbowing the door, try to keep your elbow close to your body throughout your throwing motion. This will help you maintain control and generate power from your entire body, rather than just your arm.

Focus on a smooth, fluid motion: Instead of trying to throw the disc as hard as you can, focus on a smooth, fluid motion that allows you to transfer power from your lower body to your arm in a controlled manner.

Practice, practice, practice: The more you practice, the better you will become at generating power and control in your backhand throw. Spend time practicing your footwork, grip, and throwing motion to develop a smooth, controlled release.

Me:

Many people say to keep the elbow away from the body as much as you can and up instead of keeping elbow pointed down. Why is elbow close to my body better than away from my body?

ChatGPT:

Keeping the elbow close to the body can help you generate more power and control in your throw because it allows for a more compact and efficient motion. When the elbow is kept close to the body, the arm can move in a more straight line, reducing unnecessary movement and making it easier to transfer power from the body to the disc.

If the elbow is away from the body, it can create a wider arc in the throw, which can lead to a loss of power and accuracy. Additionally, an elbow that is pointing down can cause the arm to collapse, leading to a loss of power and accuracy as well.

Overall, keeping the elbow close to the body and pointing up can help you maintain a more efficient and powerful throwing motion.

That's it for now. I can ask for more questions but I need to go to sleep.

I want to ask what do you think of ChatGPT answers? Are they true or bull****?

 

[Brychanus]

I want to ask what do you think of ChatGPT answers? Are they true or bull****?

I'd give a big "it depends" or caveat to the elbow. I agree that the elbow shouldn't be too low relative to your posture since the arm & pocket can collapse. But in general I think it's otherwise better to think about it like swinging the whole arm and allowing the disc to approach your center of mass and resist pocket collapse, redirecting back out like swinging a hammer.

That's what Gurthie is doing.

And wiggins and KJUSA etc.

That was one of the harder things I've had to work on with the arm.

 

[SmileyBoy]

I'm getting better slowly and can do drills. I realized when I'm elbowing the door aka leading with the elbow, my hips aren't rotating. That's not good. Is butt wipe drill going to help me out in this case?

 

[SmileyBoy]

Nvm all good. Was pushing myself with rear leg. Stopped doing that and went down instead on my plant leg. My knees go inward. I can't do the motion yet due to injury but yeah. I'll practice sometimes.

 

[Brychanus]

Nvm all good. Was pushing myself with rear leg. Stopped doing that and went down instead on my plant leg. My knees go inward. I can't do the motion yet due to injury but yeah. I'll practice sometimes.

Yeah, watch the shin angles on this clip of Kallstrom that SW shares often. You can't achieve those shin angles or as abrupt a crush by being horse-stanced and pushing from that stance.

I also found it easier to work on my x-step and feel the difference between moving power-stanced vs. athletic stanced when I allow more vertical hop like Kallstrom or SW or GG or Tattar. Also emphasizes the drop into the crush & brace.

 

[Brychanus]

Oops- MK clip here:

 

[SmileyBoy]

I also found it easier to work on my x-step and feel the difference between moving power-stanced vs. athletic stanced when I allow more vertical hop like Kallstrom or SW or GG or Tattar. Also emphasizes the drop into the crush & brace.

I'm not a big fan of a crow hop but I'm not saying no to that idea. I feel a bit of loss in accuracy and crow hopping for small upshots isn't ideal either. I'm trying to keep the style that I like the most and is comfortable for me and provides the accuracy I like. All I want to do is some minor adjustments and get the lower body to work. Since lower back injury healing takes a long time, I will probably need to rest for 2-3 weeks more and only use forehand. I can do drills a little bit but once I start feeling a pain, I stop.

I have a good excuse to practice forehands which is not hurting my lower back. This also gives me time to figure out my forehand style and get rid of any unnecessary movements that I may have for better accuracy. I don't have a lot of distance in forehand and I don't think I can get any more either without destroying my elbow

Overall, it's going to take a bit longer than expected most likely to get back to the 100% feeling. The recovery is going good and can do drills. That's all