Off Axis Torque

[TalbotTrojan]

Great something serious for me to think about. I am sure that I have OAT on my forehand and see none on my backhand. I would love to get rid of the OAT on the forehand simply for the standpoint of having a bit more control. I do tend to notice that when I try harder the more that I get. Just a thought.

 

[craigg]

To help w/OAT on the forehand, work on keeping you elbow in closer to your hip.
Also - pay attention to what the thumb on your throwing hand is doing. If you roll your thumb over on a forehand shot, then that's what the disc will do - so in the case of a forehand, you want to finish the throw with your palm skyward. If you have trouble achieving this - try reaching back further and force yourself to watch the disc stay flat as you pull through the snap.

 

[33tango]

I think I understand what OAT is on the wrists, but is there another part of your body that you can "commit" OAT with? I was thinking your back, say if you start bent over and end leaning back? I'm not sure, i'm just wondering if the wrists are the only way to do it.

Something here that hasn't been discussed is the path the disc takes from your "reach back" position to your release position. I find if I bring the disc across close to my chest it's harder to get my wrist roll to make a disc break over and turn right. If instead I pull through with the disc 12-18 inches out from my chest it's much easier to then turn my wrist palm up during the release and get the disc to break over and turn right.

Does anyone else use this method, or just me?

 

[bazkitcase5]

well I think thats the issue - unless you are good enough to throw with OAT when you need to and without it when you do not need to, its best to never roll your wrist, as that is the primary cause of OAT

there are exceptions to every rule, but most players need to use an understable discs and get it to flip over, rather than rolling your wrist to make the disc turn right (at least until you get good enough to control different release points and knowing when you should do them)

 

[garublador]

well I think thats the issue - unless you are good enough to throw with OAT when you need to and without it when you do not need to, its best to never roll your wrist, as that is the primary cause of OAT

IMO, controlling OAT is extremely important. It's the only way to reliably shape lines. It's something everyone should learn and it isn't really that difficult once you become aware of it.

33tango, that sounds like it should work alright for some lines. The only issue I'd see is that you're probably sacrificing power and the potential for wrist extension (which gives power and nose down). As long as you're doing it on purpose and can throw without doing it I don't see a big issue. Most people who throw like that do it because they don't know better.

 

[bazkitcase5]

you pretty much just said what I was thinking - just much better

 

[33tango]

IMO, controlling OAT is extremely important. It's the only way to reliably shape lines. It's something everyone should learn and it isn't really that difficult once you become aware of it.

33tango, that sounds like it should work alright for some lines. The only issue I'd see is that you're probably sacrificing power and the potential for wrist extension (which gives power and nose down). As long as you're doing it on purpose and can throw without doing it I don't see a big issue. Most people who throw like that do it because they don't know better.

I can control it fairly well about 80% of the time, I'm working to up that. I am definitely sacrificing some power. Thanks for the tips.

 

[Olorin]

I wonder if it would be helpful to use some terminology from aeronautics here?

[FONT=&quot]To understand the orientation of the axes on a disc golf shot think of airplane. [/FONT]See this page on Flight Dynamics. [FONT=&quot]On an airplane the axis from the nose through the tail is the X axis, the axis through the wings is the Y axis, and the vertical up and down axis is the Z axis. Now imagine a flat thrown disc. The axis through the nose of the disc and the tail is the X axis, the axis through the left and right sides is the Y axis, and the vertical up an down axis through the center is the Z axis. A flat disc spins about the Z axis on the XY plane.

[/FONT]Also, there are 3 aerodynamic parameters: Roll, Pitch, and Yaw.
Roll = Left or right side higher. Around the X axis
Pitch = nose up, nose down. Around the Y axis
Yaw = the spin on a disc. Around the Z axis

[FONT=&quot]Since OAT occurs when the left or right side of the disc is tilted this is known as roll in aerodynamics. I don't know if this helps anyone else or not, but with OAT I've had trouble visualizing which "axis" was being referred to and where the "torque" was being applied. It's easier for me to visualize roll.

Am I right in thinking that the problematic OAT typically referred to is roll such that the left side of the disc is higher than the right?[/FONT]

I think that the energy lost in OAT is also caused by precession of the Z axis due to the tilted XY plane.

 

[sidewinding]

Pseudovectors are almost impossible to visualize.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudovector

Have you ever taken an empty glass and spun it on a table? If you do it at just the right speed it will spin like a top but it's axis will be moving all over the place due to the resistance of the table. Put the same glass on a lazy susan and spin it and it's axis will be stable due to no resistance. When you throw a disc, your hand is the table and the air is the lazy susan. You want to transfer the disc from your hand to the air without your hand causing any resistance that will knock the disc off it's axis.

 

[Lewis]

Gak! Vectors!

You're taking me back to Multivariable Calculus in college, which I really didn't like. But the airplane analogy helps clarify things. So this means that flutter is not a kind of OAT.

 

[Dr3wska]

i actually dont do this very often back hand but more forehand it happens about 50% of the time. I never knew what this was called till now but i need to work on it i dont know how it never became a serious problem with my back hand. But people have been saying that myabe i have to much arm speed. I dont know y i m postin this i just wanted to feel like part of the crowd.

 

[jtencer]

Gak! Vectors!

You're taking me back to Multivariable Calculus in college, which I really didn't like. But the airplane analogy helps clarify things. So this means that flutter is not a kind of OAT.

The flutter comes from not having a "clean release." It smooths out during flight because of the gyroscopic effects of the disc.

 

[mashnut]

Gak! Vectors!

You're taking me back to Multivariable Calculus in college, which I really didn't like. But the airplane analogy helps clarify things. So this means that flutter is not a kind of OAT.

Not as I understand it. That flutter can be a sign of OAT, and is caused by force on the disc that doesn't go into spinning the disc on it's axis that causes the axis to wobble and the disc to flutter.

 

[slowRoll]

@garublador

This is the most useful thread I have found here so far. I was aware that I had a flaw in my throw and windy conditions really expose this in my game. When it is calm outside i can get away with throwing more stable discs, forcing them over, then watching them all come back. but that same mentality in wind leads to OB's, force overs that never come back and alot of frustration on my part. As someone who can throw a boss 400' on a calm day, i feel as if I've hit a wall and I'm going to have to make a change to break through it. I hope I'm up to the challenge. After 3 years of throwing incorrectly, it won't be easy to change.

 

[Paulie]

OAT, this is what it is. Search feature, that is what I used. That little check box that lets you reply to old posts, that is what I checked.

 

[BrotherDave]

Paulie wins 5000 internetz. :hfive:

We've got lots of threads on OAT and some crucial ways to get rid of it in the Technique & Strategy sticky in case this thread didn't satisfy you.

 

[The dude on the bike]

I oat eatmeal for breakfast.

 

[Turner512]

I found that throwing my roc made my OAT most apparent. I took a break from drivers the past couple of months. I haven't thrown a driver since June and it is September. I have gotten my roc on a more consistent path and have increased distance and control in all my throws. I found that my issue was with shoulder plane. I am constantly torquing my body for a hyzer but sending the disc on an anhyzer plane. I don't think I understand the wrist roll over concept. I wish someone would post a series of photos or a very informative video. But occasionally I find myself sending a roc on a flippy line that ends up rolling far right. I'm wondering if anyone thinks this (my break from drivers) was a good idea and if they think I should work on anything else to help rid me from accidental OAT once and for all.

 

[crazypep]

What an excellent detailed description of OAT...Kudos Garublador!

IMO, controlling OAT is extremely important. It's the only way to reliably shape lines. It's something everyone should learn and it isn't really that difficult once you become aware of it.

I agree but, ONLY after one learns to throw on a flat plane with good technique and clean releases FIRST! Then try experimenting around. If you can't throw your putter or a stable mid-range flat and straight, then THIS IS NOT FOR YOU! I see too many people throwing their Nukes-Destroyers-Halos-Kings-Katanas-Bosses and Monsters for big D and can't throw it in the same place twice. When those same people go to throw their "300' slightly overstable midrange" disc, it goes 140' and crashes on an extreme anhyser.

 

[BrotherDave]

I found that throwing my roc made my OAT most apparent. I took a break from drivers the past couple of months. I haven't thrown a driver since June and it is September. I have gotten my roc on a more consistent path and have increased distance and control in all my throws. I found that my issue was with shoulder plane. I am constantly torquing my body for a hyzer but sending the disc on an anhyzer plane. I don't think I understand the wrist roll over concept. I wish someone would post a series of photos or a very informative video. But occasionally I find myself sending a roc on a flippy line that ends up rolling far right. I'm wondering if anyone thinks this (my break from drivers) was a good idea and if they think I should work on anything else to help rid me from accidental OAT once and for all.

Abandoning drivers completely can hurt you b/c mids and putters aren't as nose angle sensitive. Throwing nose down is vital and drivers punish you best for not doing that.

Roll over/under is pretty simple to visualize. Imagine a perfectly flat throw on flat ground where your arm is more or less at 90° with your body for the whole throw. Now, on a perfectly flat throw you want your wrist to be parallel with the ground from the right pec to the follow through. If your wrist turns palm up, facing the sky during the throw and especially the follow through, you rolled your wrist over. If your wrist turns palm down, palm facing the ground during the throw then you rolled your wrist under.