One year into my form journey - this is the most important thing I’ve learned

[azplaya25]

Actually, the most important thing I'm still learning. As disc golf gains popularity, there seems to more drills, channels, advice, and ideas than ever, and it would be very easy to get lost as a newer player. I've focused on all sorts of stuff over the past year , grip, power pocket, reach back, you name it. I think it's natural to really focus on the upper body positioning as you try to improve, but the most important, fundamental concept happens in the lower body.



This is the move you need to nail down before you worry about anything else. This is a lateral shift. This is different than a rotational shift, which I've been battling for the past year and counting. What is the difference? When you get torqued into that back leg, the natural inclination is to just rotate right back. There's even a "spin and throw" group/coach out there promoting this. This is incorrect. This is the difference between shifting from in from in front vs shifting from behind.

There is lots of content on this site that discusses the benefits of shifting from behind, so I don't want to get into it here. The whole purpose of this post is to simplify the concept and give one simple move to focus on. I found this little pool stick move buried in the one leg drill vid, and I thing it illustrates the idea better than anything I've seen.

Good luck out there, and stop spinning and throwing

 

[scooby snack]

Actually, the most important thing I'm still learning. As disc golf gains popularity, there seems to more drills, channels, advice, and ideas than ever, and it would be very easy to get lost as a newer player. I've focused on all sorts of stuff over the past year , grip, power pocket, reach back, you name it. I think it's natural to really focus on the upper body positioning as you try to improve, but the most important, fundamental concept happens in the lower body.



This is the move you need to nail down before you worry about anything else. This is a lateral shift. This is different than a rotational shift, which I've been battling for the past year and counting. What is the difference? When you get torqued into that back leg, the natural inclination is to just rotate right back. There's even a "spin and throw" group/coach out there promoting this. This is incorrect. This is the difference between shifting from in from in front vs shifting from behind.

There is lots of content on this site that discusses the benefits of shifting from behind, so I don't want to get into it here. The whole purpose of this post is to simplify the concept and give one simple move to focus on. I found this little pool stick move buried in the one leg drill vid, and I thing it illustrates the idea better than anything I've seen.

Good luck out there, and stop spinning and throwing

It feels great when you have one of those "aha" moments, and something about the process clicks.

 

[DiscFifty]

Good luck out there, and stop spinning and throwing

Bradley Walker (spin and throw group on FB) says Paige Pierce is the poster child for spin and throw. If that's what he's preaching....doesn't seem so bad. Thoughts?

 

[scooby snack]

Bradley Walker (spin and throw group on FB) says Paige Pierce is the poster child for spin and throw. If that's what he's preaching....doesn't seem so bad. Thoughts?

There are a few videos of her throwing that kind of look like she spins and throws, but to me it looks like the camera angle is creating that perception.

Paige has described the throw as planting and moving the hips laterally toward the target.

 

[sidewinder22]

Bradley Walker (spin and throw group on FB) says Paige Pierce is the poster child for spin and throw. If that's what he's preaching....doesn't seem so bad. Thoughts?

Except that it's largely based on theory which I believe has been scientifically proven false, and Paige herself vehemently disagrees with his "squish the bug" or "foot twist" teaching that rotation is generated by the rear side spinning around the front side and there is no bracing up the frontside. Bradley thinks that the "video evidence" tells you everything, but he doesn't seem to understand causation vs effect and how forces work during the throw. Some of the things he says makes me SMH, like "throw the spine backwards".

Bradley's teaching has not lead himself or anyone else [from what I've observed] to throwing anything like Paige or "pro form".
What's the saying... "the proof is in the pudding."

Paige teaching:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyV8411dObw&t=328s

Bradley teaching:


"Agassi says he uses "a lot of wrist" in his shots, but Vic Braden, et. al., look at high speed video of Agassi's forehand and proclaim Andre is not using his wrist because wrist displacement (deviation/flexion) is not seen at the impact point but is seen only "long after" contact is made. Many tennis people believe Vic has proven Andre wrong, perpetuating this narrow mindedness.

High speed video is good for observing broad issues but it is not discriminating enough to discern something as small and as quick as wrist usage, even at 40,000 frames per second. Only when the hand and wrist are wired for feedback to determine the yea or nay of flexion, extension, and deviation, the yea or nay of when and if the hand squeezes, will we be talking testable hypotheses. Until then all this talk interpreting wrist[or foot] usage from high speed video analysis is just observation, not science."
http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/step8.html

 

[sidewinder22]

Paige Pierce focusing on the lateral shift:


Kevin Jones focusing on shifting then swing:


Bradley Williams talking about focusing on balance and weight transfer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9ReTdRZ8dY#t=2m

 

[azplaya25]

Paige Pierce focusing on the lateral shift:


Kevin Jones focusing on shifting then swing:


Bradley Williams talking about focusing on balance and weight transfer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9ReTdRZ8dY#t=2m

Ha I saw that interview last night and totally thought of you SW22!

 

[timothy42b]

Or see the video I posted over on the What I Learned thread, BW comparing Scott Stokely to Paige.

He does have a point in that feel isn't real, and Paige or anybody else is not always doing what they think they are doing. But also, apparently two people can see the same video differently. Hey, where'd Rodeo go?

 

[Lastchancer88]

Ha I saw that interview last night and totally thought of you SW22!

Man, watching Bradley Williams for the first time yesterday I am fawning over that simplified McBeth style form. More relevant to this convo, I really like that first gif of him stopping at the end of the teepad. I started doing that recently in practice to try catching my weight when I realized I was just pogoing over my plant. I've found it pretty difficult to force myself to fully stop like he does. Especially in an actual throw.

 

[azplaya25]

Yeah that gif is great, and even further illustrates the importance of a lateral shift because of the torque put on your knee. My knee used to really hurt from rotating into the plant. When I posted my very first form video, SW said it reminded him of how you broke his leg doing the beto drill.

Look at the difference in the torque being applied to the front knee from the two Bradley's. I think it's pretty clear which one your body will like better and is designed to handle.

 

[timothy42b]

It's hard to convince the other side, because both lateral shift and rotation clearly exist. (even if convinced, some people might have to focus on the wrong one to produce the right one)

The videos get interpreted either way.

The solution is simple. Everybody on either side agrees Paige and Paul are doing it right. So, get them on a force plate. That should end the argument. (It won't, but it should.)

I'd contribute to a go fund me, and I bet a lot of us would.

 

[Cowabungapizzabomb]

The Spin and Throw thing is a shame because there is some great stuff in there about using the trailing side, maintaining proper angles with the throwing arm, and avoiding shoulder-led pulling, but some of it is silly and for some reason it's an all-or-nothing doctrine. The rear foot twisting thing is bonkers and it sorta ruins everything else. Today a guy posted on there asking about rear foot toe dragging because he noticed Ken Jarvis' drags a bit. Everyone's answer was "that's bad it stops you from spinning." I posted like 5 videos of pros making a good lateral move and dragging their rear toe. Crickets. Guess they didn't like the pudding I was offering.¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[sidewinder22]

It's hard to convince the other side, because both lateral shift and rotation clearly exist. (even if convinced, some people might have to focus on the wrong one to produce the right one)

The videos get interpreted either way.

The solution is simple. Everybody on either side agrees Paige and Paul are doing it right. So, get them on a force plate. That should end the argument. (It won't, but it should.)

I'd contribute to a go fund me, and I bet a lot of us would.

I've never seen any top thrower(or golfer/batter) make any kind of motion pattern similar to what Bradley is doing. It makes no sense from a physics point to twist the foot. If your foot is twisting, then you have lost ground contact and your pelvis is not being leveraged forward from the ground (Swivel Chair Drill).

Rotational force or torque happens from pushing the foot/feet into the ground left/right perpendicular to the target. Elephant Walk Drill is a pure rotational drill and the foot doesn't twist. If your rear foot is creating torque your heel should go to the right(RHBH) behind front leg once it leaves the ground, not spinning out and around to the left.

Horizontal force is pushing the feet directly forward or away from target.

Vertical force is pushing the feet directly down into the ground.

Spinning the hips/body fast doesn't equal creating torque, although it might feel nifty. Slower hips can create more torque.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zeKepHH6t4#t=15m

 

[sidewinder22]

The Spin and Throw thing is a shame because there is some great stuff in there about using the trailing side, maintaining proper angles with the throwing arm, and avoiding shoulder-led pulling, but some of it is silly and for some reason it's an all-or-nothing doctrine. The rear foot twisting thing is bonkers and it sorta ruins everything else. Today a guy posted on there asking about rear foot toe dragging because he noticed Ken Jarvis' drags a bit. Everyone's answer was "that's bad it stops you from spinning." I posted like 5 videos of pros making a good lateral move and dragging their rear toe. Crickets. Guess they didn't like the pudding I was offering.¯\_(ツ)_/¯

IMO S&T is 50/50 good/bad and a bit confusing/unclear on some things(which he blocked me for trying to have a simple discussion). All the good parts have been said before, as well as some of the bad. To call it a revolutionary method is a joke.

 

[timothy42b]

Everyone's answer was "that's bad it stops you from spinning." I posted like 5 videos of pros making a good lateral move and dragging their rear toe. Crickets. Guess they didn't like the pudding I was offering.¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I saw that and wondered when you'd get banned. Yeah, I check that site occasionally, because I don't buy all of it but there are some nuggets and some interesting clips of pros throwing. Anyway, ball golfers drag their foot and think it's a good thing. Actually I don't see how you'd get into their belt buckle forward finish position without doing it.

 

[sidewinder22]

Bradley's student is doing exactly what he is teaching with his foot twist/kick drill.

 

[sidewinder22]

If you are trying to twist the foot and spin from the rear side, then you aren't unweighting the rear side - which allows it to rotate freely when detached from the ground.

 

[txmxer]

Ultimately, the critical aspects are speed of disc and the release being in line the velocity vector.

Like anything, most people will benefit from the same/similar movements and advice, but not everyone has the same exact kinetics.

The goals are:
1 Don't cause injury/damage
2 Generate maximum disc speed
3 Release the disc at the desired angle and point in the throw motion

I don't know much about 1. I have to wear a brace on my left knee due to swelling/strain of my throw. Probably because I'm not flexible or mobile enough to make the proper pivot.

2 Max speed. The very basic level of of the throw is that discs fly further the faster the are thrown. The goal is transfer the energy of the human body to the disc. Momentum is mass x velocity. If you take m1xv1 = m2xv2 and minimize losses, your disc flies to the moon. M1 = person + disc, M2 = disc.

Let's face it, M1V1 is nowhere close to M2V2. So, the easiest variable to tweak is the transfer of energy to the disc.

Danny says, "slow is smooth, smooth is far".

Want to throw further? Improve the efficieny/smoothness of your throw.

 

[timothy42b]

If you are trying to twist the foot and spin from the rear side, then you aren't unweighting the rear side - which allows it to rotate freely when detached from the ground.

This is the other Bradley, Bradley Williams, teaching.

At 7 minutes to 9 minutes the student is loading the back hip and spinning on it. It doesn't look to me like the teacher is doing that but the student sure is.

 

[sidewinder22]

This is the other Bradley, Bradley Williams, teaching.

At 7 minutes to 9 minutes the student is loading the back hip and spinning on it. It doesn't look to me like the teacher is doing that but the student sure is.

1. Shift back.
2. Shift forward while extending/turning back away.
3. Rotate forward to Power Position.


4. Extend to Hit.
5. Follow Thru.
6. Reverse back to Hit.