Optimizing Forehand

[slowplastic]

Going through the motion indoors I feel like I'm shuffling my front foot forward in a slightly toe-down position. My toe contacts the ground first (without supporting any weight really) and then my heel touches immediately after. I'm sure this is how it happens for me on low to medium power throws...maybe on higher power throws with a longer stride I am forced to land heel first, but I really can't be sure without looking at video of myself. I've never concentrated on that part of the stride.

Yeah the closed idea is similar to having a closed plant in BH. You can see SW22 has a slightly closed foot in his video, too. I am concentrating on getting a clean shift in the lower body into the closed plant, rather than trying to pump my back hip to 90 degrees. That's basically been my focus, is a clean closed shift and then committing to the snap/nose down pop at the end of the throw. I feel like I can't think of more than 2 things during a throw (FH or BH) and be successful.

 

[deyo7]

Going through the motion indoors I feel like I'm shuffling my front foot forward in a slightly toe-down position. My toe contacts the ground first (without supporting any weight really) and then my heel touches immediately after. I'm sure this is how it happens for me on low to medium power throws...maybe on higher power throws with a longer stride I am forced to land heel first, but I really can't be sure without looking at video of myself. I've never concentrated on that part of the stride.

Yeah the closed idea is similar to having a closed plant in BH. You can see SW22 has a slightly closed foot in his video, too. I am concentrating on getting a clean shift in the lower body into the closed plant, rather than trying to pump my back hip to 90 degrees. That's basically been my focus, is a clean closed shift and then committing to the snap/nose down pop at the end of the throw. I feel like I can't think of more than 2 things during a throw (FH or BH) and be successful.

OK going through the motions, I think I may have figured out what my brain and body were not connecting. So I unintentionally have a closed foot plant, but I'm wondering if the difference might be in what I'm allowing my hip to do. Are you keeping your left leg straight and posted up like in baseball hitting pic, I assume? I think I might be allowing my hip to move forward instead of "posting" up so to speak. And I think this might be why I feel like I do occasionally get good success on distance throws if I land heel first... whether or not heel/toe happens first exactly is probably irrelevant, but I think the difference could be that focusing on longer stride with heel first gets me in a better position to post up and not lose that energy. Does that make sense?

Concentrating on closed plant like the baseball swing manner also makes me feel like it's going to be more natural to use my back foot to push off of, for some reason. I guess it's sort of like in BH when I concentrate on putting my offhand on my pocket/swim move I tend to use my legs more/better.

And yes, two things is about all I can handle also

 

[slowplastic]

You don't want to keep the leg straight, it straightens to clear the hip. You plant with a slightly/moderately bent knee and a closed foot angle (to maintain a closed front hip/internally rotated hip). When you transfer your weight and start rotating, your front leg extends to push your hip back, so you end up with a straightening leg.

I don't think my front leg fully extends in my FH throws, but again I'd have to look at video of myself throwing at high power. I am not going 100% at my throws because I don't want to mess something up and muscle it incorrectly and screw up my elbow. In comparison, when swinging a baseball bat I feel confident with swinging real hard and I do get a fully extended front leg like in that picture I posted a few posts back.

Here is a slow motion video of Ricky smashing a forehand, you can see he plants with a slightly bent knee and the leg extends during the throw.



When he is throwing at a more moderate power level, he doesn't stride as far ahead so his knee starts with more bend, and it doesn't extend as straight during the throw either.

 

[deyo7]

Right, exactly - that's what I was trying to communicate: straightens to clear the hip. I think I might have bad tendency in allowing my left side (hip/butt) to move forward rather than back and thereby I'm failing to clear the hip, at least at times...

Thanks again for the dialogue

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah that's a good one to identify. That leaking forward of the left (front) side will negate the power transfer. When you get it right it'll feel like you're throwing with the same effort but the disc will keep going.

 

[Frankp2491]

This thread was exactly what I needed to watch I have been only throwing RHBH and I know I can improve a lot if I can learn to throw a FH because the fade plays into a dog leg right much better than a BH esp in the heavily wooded courses by where I live... Thanks for the help this is a gem thread

 

[Janis22]

I know we are talking more about the lower body, but i just found this video where shawn clement also talks about skipping stones (at 2:40) and how the upper body and the head positioning is. I think it translates very good to a forehand throw.

 

[deyo7]

Yes. And you're on point: I'm personally interested in anything that improves forehand and how it's best done mechanically; i.e., not just lower body.

 

[tmoody]

I'm resurrecting this thread instead of starting a new one, because there's a lot of good info in here.

I'm a novice to the game and I'm emphasizing FH first, for the simple reason that I find it's working a bit better for me. I'm also an older guy (64) who was never very athletic to begin with, although I have played golf for about 15 years (not well, though). The course I play is a very tight woodsy course; there's no hole where you can really just open up and bomb it off the pad.

Anyway, I'm working on throwing in a single step, with no run-up. This is for the simple reason that a run-up means more moving parts that can result in a loss of control, in exchange for distance that isn't really relevant on this course anyway.

As I experiment in the field, I figured out a few things covered in this thread. For example, when I let my elbow get farther away from my body I got a longer FH throw with less perceived effort. I had been doing the T-Rex thing without realizing it. Another thing I noticed is that the grip I use has a large effect on hand position through the throw and the whole pronation thing. That is, there's a big difference between having the pads of the fingertips facing the plate of the disc versus facing the rim. When they face the rim (as much as possible) the hand is already semi-pronated, and there's a lot more degrees of wrist motion in that position than in the other palm-up position.

But for engaging my hip from a standstill, I've had pretty good luck with something similar to what baseball pitchers do with the left (lead) leg, as in the picture:

It's not as dramatic, but I start with my left side to the target, pull that left knee up a bit--more than just a normal step--and start the step out from there. In the process I'm shooting my right hip from behind toward the target and that launches my arm and the actual throw. The left leg step seems to help the timing somehow. I just wonder if anyone else has tried this.

 

[tmoody]

Still experimenting and learning...

I've noticed a couple of things. First, there are some basic differences in how people do FH. Sidewinder's videos clearly show his throwing arm pretty well extended throughout the throw, from the deep reachback through the release.

https://youtu.be/APIfdnN0wJw

Consequently, a lot of the arm power (over and above hip turn) is coming from chest and shoulder muscles.

In contrast, some other FH throwers, and also this squash/stone-skimming video, make more use of triceps muscles, with the arm well bent in the backswing, and a lot of power coming from the unflexing of the arm in the throw. See Dave Dunipace:

https://youtu.be/xa8QHevIGKs

Dave's arm is very bent at the end of his backswing, straightening through the throw.

I've been experimenting with both ways of throwing FH. They feel very different. At this point I get better results with the bent arm unflexing method. I'm not talking about distance, which is about the same either way. It's more about control and accuracy, and especially consistency. I'm not sure whether this is one of those things where you just pick one and practice it, or whether individual body type and anatomical details indicate throwing one way rather than the other.

 

[slowplastic]

Do you agree that they get to essentially the same point when the arm is at the side of their body, disc/forearm loaded back, and then at the hit point? That's what it seems like to me, and it's just the backswing and beginning of throw that the arm is in a different position.

I would like to hear opinions on this too if there is a difference. I don't like the bent elbow backswing style because I feel it's too easy to "overdo" it and start getting towards the inverted W backswing, which can torque the elbow. However that's my only thought on it...if it's done right I don't know if there's any real difference other than preference?

Here's the inverted W position where the hand goes below the elbow. I'm sure many of us have seen some FH players do a version of this.

 

[tmoody]

Do you agree that they get to essentially the same point when the arm is at the side of their body, disc/forearm loaded back, and then at the hit point? That's what it seems like to me, and it's just the backswing and beginning of throw that the arm is in a different position.

I think the position at the side is about the same, although it feels to me like my elbow is closer to my body when I use the bent arm backswing. I can't be sure, however, and I haven't studied enough videos of other throwers to see if there's a general correlation. I'm thinking this could be the origin of the "keep the elbow close to the body" advice that is often heard. That is, this advice may be specific to that kind of throw.

I would like to hear opinions on this too if there is a difference. I don't like the bent elbow backswing style because I feel it's too easy to "overdo" it and start getting towards the inverted W backswing, which can torque the elbow. However that's my only thought on it...if it's done right I don't know if there's any real difference other than preference?

I don't think I've done the inverted W thing, myself (I believe I'd have pain to remember it by). I do think there's a difference, though, in terms of powering the throw, as I speculated above. It's not an either-or thing, but the straighter arm throw has to rely more on the pecs and front shoulder (I guess the front shoulder just is the pectoral muscle, now that I think about it), because the flexion of the arm just doesn't change much, except for a short thrust at the very end prior to release. The bent arm throw, in contrast, cocks the forearm right back to an acute angle with the forearm, as you can see Dave Dunipace do.

In both throws, the position of the upper arm is similar at the "top" of the backswing; it's the forearm that's drastically different. And that makes the arc the hand travels from the top of the backswing to release very different too. Since any kind of throw involves accelerating the hand (and disc) all the way to the release point, and acceleration requires muscular force, that different arc is going to depend on different muscles.

I don't mean to sound like a wannabe expert. I'm far from it. But as a new disc golfer with a fairly old body, I do notice stresses and strains that a younger person might just power through and overlook. I'm getting to the point where I can do both throws but the straighter arm FH feels a bit "riskier" to me. That is, I do feel a strain near the insertion of that right pectoral. I don't get that with the bent arm throw, which is why I started analyzing it.

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah I'm trying to figure it out too. I don't get to the right position between transitioning from the backswing on the way to the hit point. I try to do the extended Wysocki style arm out backswing, but on the way to the hit my forearm is above the elbow instead of on line with the target with a level forearm. The backswing style does feel different to me, where the bent elbow style reminds me more of the top hand of a right handed batting swing. The elbow is up by the shoulder, and the whole unit swings down and to the side. However I don't think the muscles feel different when the throw starts, maybe your elbow is too far from your body or not out front enough in the straight reachback style and that's why it seems more dangerous? In slow motion of SW22's FH's from the side, he definitely gets a huge forearm load back similar to what Dunipace is getting with the other form.

 

[ThrowBot]

I prefer the bent elbow backswing. It helps to get into the "lead with the elbow" type mindset that helps to develop more snap (somewhat similar to BH technique in that way). Keeping the arm straight during the backswing makes me feeling like I'm strong arming the throw.

I see that "inverted W" posture ^^^ that slowplastic mentions all the time when people just start trying to throw FH. It often leads to the arm scooping out a low point as the arm passes the hip, and going upward into the release point, with the resultant throw being much higher than intended. That's the main reason I advocate for the "elbow near hip" philosophy. The elbow doesn't necessarily stay glued to your hip, but thinking that way at least keeps people from cocking their elbow up high behind their ear.

 

[sidewinder22]

Camera angles are slightly different. Biggest difference is that I keep the forearm and disc on plane and maintain the nose down. Also my elbow is lower and closer to body at the top of the backswing. You see how Dave winds the forearm and disc around off plane and the nose pops up at release with some wobble.

 

[sidewinder22]

Still experimenting and learning...

I've noticed a couple of things. First, there are some basic differences in how people do FH. Sidewinder's videos clearly show his throwing arm pretty well extended throughout the throw, from the deep reachback through the release.

Consequently, a lot of the arm power (over and above hip turn) is coming from chest and shoulder muscles.

In contrast, some other FH throwers, and also this squash/stone-skimming video, make more use of triceps muscles, with the arm well bent in the backswing, and a lot of power coming from the unflexing of the arm in the throw. See Dave Dunipace:

Dave's arm is very bent at the end of his backswing, straightening through the throw.

I've been experimenting with both ways of throwing FH. They feel very different. At this point I get better results with the bent arm unflexing method. I'm not talking about distance, which is about the same either way. It's more about control and accuracy, and especially consistency. I'm not sure whether this is one of those things where you just pick one and practice it, or whether individual body type and anatomical details indicate throwing one way rather than the other.

I think the position at the side is about the same, although it feels to me like my elbow is closer to my body when I use the bent arm backswing. I can't be sure, however, and I haven't studied enough videos of other throwers to see if there's a general correlation. I'm thinking this could be the origin of the "keep the elbow close to the body" advice that is often heard. That is, this advice may be specific to that kind of throw.

I do think there's a difference, though, in terms of powering the throw, as I speculated above. It's not an either-or thing, but the straighter arm throw has to rely more on the pecs and front shoulder (I guess the front shoulder just is the pectoral muscle, now that I think about it), because the flexion of the arm just doesn't change much, except for a short thrust at the very end prior to release. The bent arm throw, in contrast, cocks the forearm right back to an acute angle with the forearm, as you can see Dave Dunipace do.

In both throws, the position of the upper arm is similar at the "top" of the backswing; it's the forearm that's drastically different. And that makes the arc the hand travels from the top of the backswing to release very different too. Since any kind of throw involves accelerating the hand (and disc) all the way to the release point, and acceleration requires muscular force, that different arc is going to depend on different muscles.

I don't mean to sound like a wannabe expert. I'm far from it. But as a new disc golfer with a fairly old body, I do notice stresses and strains that a younger person might just power through and overlook. I'm getting to the point where I can do both throws but the straighter arm FH feels a bit "riskier" to me. That is, I do feel a strain near the insertion of that right pectoral. I don't get that with the bent arm throw, which is why I started analyzing it.

I was going to say I'm using less shoulder and arm muscles as my shoulder and elbow actually moves less. My arm is basically just a whip from the hips turning my body with the arm and weightshift. A local pro here said I have the laziest FH in disc golf, and some touring pros I've played with couldn't believe my standstill distance.

The funny thing about "feel ain't real" and "elbow in" is that I feel like my elbow is "in" close to hip during the throw until release, my elbow is definitely closer to my hip in the backswing than Dave's. I think it just feels "in" during the swing because it is connected and loaded back to it. I also clear my rear side hip over to the left side of the tee pad more than other players as my rear leg everts and slides to the left, so naturally that gives my arm more room or space away from the body to swing through and more counterweight. When I tried to actively "keep my elbow in" closer one time it actually hurt my shoulder. I've never experienced pain with my normal throw except for my oblique muscle when I didn't warm up.

As for control, accuracy and consistency IMO my way is much better. I think you can get more spin by cocking the forearm more off plane like Dave, but not really necessary IMO, and the extra spin helps stabilize the disc from more off plane torque/wobble so those two may go more hand in hand to balance out. My forearm and disc maintain much better angle integrity throughout the swing so it's very accurate and consistent. As Scott Stokely says disc golf is like darts, backswing straight back, then straight forward on same path. He also said "elbow in" is the biggest myth in disc golf.

In conclusion, if something causes pain, then stop doing it and do whatever doesn't cause pain. IMO if it hurts trying it my way then there's probably something wrong with your sequence or mechanics, or maybe something different about your own anatomy.

 

[tmoody]

As Scott Stokely says disc golf is like darts, backswing straight back, then straight forward on same path. He also said "elbow in" is the biggest myth in disc golf.

In conclusion, if something causes pain, then stop doing it and do whatever doesn't cause pain. IMO if it hurts trying it my way then there's probably something wrong with your sequence or mechanics, or maybe something different about your own anatomy.

In principle I agree with the idea that it's best to eliminate extraneous movements from the throw.; it's just a question of what counts as extraneous in a given case.

I did some field practice again yesterday, trying the throw both ways. I don't think I can get my forearm tilted back to lead with the elbow to the extent that both you and Dave can do it. And if I try too hard that's when I get a twinge of pain. But it's not every time, so maybe I just need to smooth it out in the straighter arm form.

My best throws are about 200 feet, with any disc. I'm okay with that, but maybe the reason I can't generate more power has something to do with my difficulty in getting that elbow out there in front. I'm doing all throws from a standstill, until I get to a point where I'm ready to add more moving parts. I set up with my left side to the target, then step toward the target with my left foot as I make a left parenthesis with my body and start turning my hip. So the whole throw is just that one step, for now. On a good throw, I have a smooth follow-through, my right hand turns over and my right (rear) foot end up on tiptoes, similar to a golf club swing finish.

 

[slowplastic]

My best throws are about 200 feet, with any disc. I'm okay with that, but maybe the reason I can't generate more power has something to do with my difficulty in getting that elbow out there in front. I'm doing all throws from a standstill, until I get to a point where I'm ready to add more moving parts. I set up with my left side to the target, then step toward the target with my left foot as I make a left parenthesis with my body and start turning my hip. So the whole throw is just that one step, for now. On a good throw, I have a smooth follow-through, my right hand turns over and my right (rear) foot end up on tiptoes, similar to a golf club swing finish.

I would watch the Shawn Clement hammer video from post 13 in this thread.

I don't try to get the elbow in front, and I don't try to lag the disc back. I try to keep the the upper arm/elbow leveraged with my torso, and let the disc load my forearm back as it wants. I don't get as much load back on line as SW22 and don't throw as far as him, but can still throw 375+. Things feel different to everyone in their throw, but I know when I think about elbow lead or the like, it ends up with too much elbow lead and some strain on the elbow.

Also I don't think about the lead leg, I think about the rear leg and rear hip load from behind. In that Shawn Clement video it shows how to turn your hips to leverage your swing downward and through, this is what I'm doing to feel the connection with my upper arm through my torso all the way to my hips. Once you know how to obtain this leverage you can think about the lead stride, etc., but I really feel that how you shift your weight on the rear side is what really matters. It's about being able to have leverage through the whole swing, not just about trying to get your arm moving forward real fast.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, if you can use a hammer sideways or toss it, then you can throw a forehand or backhand. Also when you do use a hammer, you would never take it off the line in your backswing, you take it straight back(swing back with curved arc) to be able to hit the nail with the hammer head on the same plane, you would never twist the head of the hammer around off plane if you want to hit the nail flush.

 

[tmoody]

After playing more rounds and doing more field practice I'm slowly finding what works for me, with my particular arms and joints. I've had more success with a more "upright" FH throw. It's almost an overhand throw, with a slight anhyzer, released at about the level of my ear. I aim slightly down, to keep from skying it. Full follow through, like throwing a baseball.

I don't get any more distance with this throw; I still max out at 200 feet. But I get pretty good control and no shoulder pain. The flight is a slight S curve with the usual fade at the end. At the moment I'm working with a Teebird in Star lite plastic, at 158g. I also have pretty good luck with a DX Beast and plasma Crave. Very different discs but these are the ones that work.

I still sometimes do a more traditional FH stone skipping kind of throw but I'm not really finding any advantage to it.


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