kerq6c
Bogey Member
This seems like a huge amount of work for the TD's to verify. Oh do all these cards match? Instead of just 18 now you have 72 to read and check.
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Proposed rule changes for 2024
- Thread starter Skamanda
- Start date
Dcinmd
Double Eagle Member
What is the penalty for not submitting a score card? Disqualification?
Edit : Nevermind I read the last sentence.
Dcinmd
Double Eagle Member
Not if a majority of them are done electronically. But yes that can be a long process otherwise.
BillFleming
* Ace Member *
I think, that in reality, the TD's will just set the paper scorecards aside in case there are questions/issues about the scores. For example, after a round a player comes back and says "Hey, I just noticed my score isn't what I saw it was when we finished. I think someone changed my score." The TD will then pull up the electronic scores and the paper scores and then compare them. Since the player complaining had to keep score, that player's score card will be checked first to see what it says and then the other cards compared. But the paper cards will need to be kept at least until the end of the tournament in case there are scoring disputes. Since the scorer gets punished for submitting a wrong score, the player punished has the right to see the rest of the cards to confirm the mistake/error or confirm that any other player submitting the wrong score also got penalized.
Edited to correct "I thing" to "I think".
Last edited:
krupicka
Double Eagle Member
If it is late two strokes, if not submitted at all they can be subject to DQ.What is the penalty for not submitting a score card? Disqualification?
Edit : Nevermind I read the last sentence.
krupicka
Double Eagle Member
Even an event that is all paper, a TD would only need to read/check each player's score once (on that player's scorecard) and then can do a quick cross-check that the totals on the groups cards matches. This is not much more than today.
Unless there's a discrepancy, in which case the TD has to check the hole by hole scores and the total on the other cards to find out where error is, which raises the questions of what happens if the hole scores and the total on the player's card are correct but one or more hole scores and/or the total on one or more of the other players cards are incorrect?
Also, since 808.F does not stipulate a penalty for not reconciling a scorecard and 808.G.2 and .3 penalize players for errors on their total score and hole scores, but do not penalize players if another member of their group submits an incorrect scorecard, what incentive is there for players to correctly record other players' scores or disincentive not to record other players' scores incorrectly?
BWchucker
Par Member
Everyone has to enter their own score just like if everyone had their own paper card. It will display an alert if there are conflicting scores entered on a hole.
krupicka
Double Eagle Member
If there is a discrepancy, then yes the TD needs to contact the relevant individuals find out why there is a discrepancy. One of the key changes as you noticed is that an individual's score card is the one that matters. A player is only penalized if their score is incorrect on their card. Ideally if the group knows that the submitted scores do not match for whatever random reason, they would come to the TD and explain the issue so that the TD can sort it out.
The reason there is not a penalty if there is a mistake on another players card is we did not want to penalize a player who submitted a scorecard and 2 seconds later another player realized that their score was incorrect and fixed their own card (hopefully with a discussion with the card).
To your last question, players are expected to make a good faith effort at keeping an accurate scorecard. Not making a good faith effort at keeping score is not keeping score. That was one of the Q&As we are adding to go along with this rule:
Q: A member of my group kept a paper scorecard, and their own round and hole scores are correct. However, the other players' scores are not anything like what everyone else actually threw. Because the penalty for a player's incorrect scorecard only applies to the score for that player, can they do that?
A: They are not penalized if there is a simple mistake for another player's score, but randomly writing numbers down is not keeping score, and that player could be subject to disqualification by the tournament director. Players need to make a good faith effort at keeping score and totaling up the scorecard correctly. At the end of the round, the group should reconcile any differences between their scorecards before they are submitted. That cannot be done if someone is not keeping an accurate scorecard.
da Crippler
Eagle Member
When tournament rounds start going 4+ hours due to every card having to proceed at the pace of their slowest scorekeeper, they will rethink this rule.
Awkward Accountant
Bogey Member
I completely hate this rule. 2 people keeping score is more than enough. Why allow something so silly to slow down the pace of our rounds and get us out of rhythm.
Sewer bill
Eagle Member
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2022
- Messages
- 585
And now for my most controversial take: paper scorecards are faster for the players.
glassila
Double Eagle Member
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2013
- Messages
- 1,616
1. pulling out the card, writing down 4 scores, putting it away: 15-20 seconds.
2. pulling out a cellphone, opening up an app, punching in 4 scores: 20-25 seconds.
Dcinmd
Double Eagle Member
Not with some of the math skills that I have witness on the course.
Dcinmd
Double Eagle Member
Post Round
1. adding up the paper cards 5 to 10 minutes.
2. Adding up digital 30 seconds.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
From a practical standpoint, cell scoring is not ideal under harsh weather conditions whether rain, snow or especially when temps are cold enough to wear gloves. What we've sometimes done in our flex start rounds in winter (non-PDGA) is write hole scores on a reusable scorecard then enter them in bulk on a cell when we get to our car or shelter either during the round or at the end.
Dcinmd
Double Eagle Member
Paper is the worst in the rain. Been a few times the scorecard didn't make it thru the round. At least a phone is weather proof.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
Reusable scorecards are made of plastic not paper and scoring can be done with grease pencil.
BillFleming
* Ace Member *
This has been mentioned before...but...for those who don't like the idea of everyone in the group having to keep score; blame it on the players who refuse to do their part and keep score. If all players kept score evenly this rule would never have been needed. However, there are players who absolutely refuse to keep score and are not one bit ashamed to tell you they won't keep score.
I've been with a group that had a delayed start time until I gave them all a 'courtesy warning'...(no one was going to second a rules violation). I volunteered to keep score, but not a single other player in the group would keep score...they argued about it so much I thought a fight was going to break out....the only thing that resolved it (although there was tension during the round), was me threatening to call the TD.
So the rule requiring everyone to keep score would have never come about if players just did their part without trying to weasel out of it.
I've been with a group that had a delayed start time until I gave them all a 'courtesy warning'...(no one was going to second a rules violation). I volunteered to keep score, but not a single other player in the group would keep score...they argued about it so much I thought a fight was going to break out....the only thing that resolved it (although there was tension during the round), was me threatening to call the TD.
So the rule requiring everyone to keep score would have never come about if players just did their part without trying to weasel out of it.
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