Questions about Tiers

[scarpfish]

Listen I have nothing against Pro's, in fact it'd be an honor to compete as one, one day, if my skil level ever get's to that point. Truthfully though, the advancement of the game depends on the interest of the "not so skilled". Whether or not you offer a REC or INT. division you should offer opportunities for the NON-pros to compete.

Umm, we do offer them chances to compete. Thousands of them. The majority of PDGA members are NON-pros. You can see many of these events listed on the schedules below. Probably at about 99% of the events listed said NON-pros are perfectly welcome to sign up and play.

http://www.pdga.com/tour_schedule
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/tournaments.php?mode=cal

In (ball) Golf tournaments in the day or 2 leading up to an event they offer Pro/Am scrambles. Stuff like that. Chances for the non-pros to complete and even play with the Pro's.

You seem to have an idealistic concept of our so-called "pros" lives, that is a stark contrast from the reality of things. If the clicked the link above, you might have noticed that disc golf tournaments with rare exception are 1 or 2 day events and almost exclusively on Saturdays and Sundays. Why is this? Because for the vast majority of us, including the vast majority of our "pros" we need to work Monday through Friday so we can afford to play tournaments. Many events have Friday doubles the night before, but there is no day or two leading up to facilitate a pro/am like you see at ball golf events.

If you are a professional at anything you are in it for the money.

Not in our sport.

Like others have said before, the am. players entry fees goes more for course renovations and to the PDGA.

Umm, no, not necessarily. The bulk of it goes to the people who run the tournament, some of which goes back to the disc manufacturers the TD or club bought the discs from, some of the monetary markup may pay a portion of the pro purse.

We receive plastic, which is cool, but more amatuers seem to play for the love of the game than do the pro's. IMHO.

I don't know about that. Seems a lot of our Ams are kind of addicted to the plastic payout like its an entitlement.

Either way completely banishing these divisions would hurt the game, i feel.

So does the PDGA and most TD's I know. That's why its never going to happen.

But say if the day before you had a random drawing from the people coming to watch to play a scramble with a pro against another Amatuer and a Pro or even in Foursomes.

Highly unlikely because as was stated above this day before in most instances is Friday, a day that most tourney entrants (whether pros or ams) may have to be at work their day jobs, or have to spend driving to the tournament. By the time, they pull into town where the tournament is held, it may be dark. Some players in fact don't check in until Saturday morning. Even ones who are there on time would rather practice.

I bet this would bring out bigger galleries and promote more interest.

No it wouldn't. Most disc golf "galleries" are simply players who are done for the day. We are not ball golf and do not have the spectator appeal that they do.

 

[CTRobuck]

Damn Scarp,

You definitely took a lot of time to meticulously disect my OPINIONS on how I feel about tournaments an ideas I think would help our game. Obviously, you feel a certain way, and that cay is the complete opposite of my opinion on how to encourage and help move the game forward in a positive way. I respect your thoughts, but would have to disagree on a couple things.

For example: "Highly unlikely because as was stated above this day before in most instances is Friday, a day that most tourney entrants (whether pros or ams) may have to be at work their day jobs, or have to spend driving to the tournament. By the time, they pull into town where the tournament is held, it may be dark. Some players in fact don't check in until Saturday morning. Even ones who are there on time would rather practice."

If you offered amatuers a chance to play with Pro's in a semi competitive format I bet they would take time to try and work their schedules around it. To just shoot down my thought because it is "Highly Unlikely" is quite narrow-minded. Any sport where the players that, fans follow, are more accessible will and does bring in more revenew for the betterment of the game. Give it a chance, what's the worse that can happen?? Some one has a good time....

"No it wouldn't. Most disc golf "galleries" are simply players who are done for the day. We are not ball golf and do not have the spectator appeal that they do. "

"No it wouldn't", Haha, that 's the definite sound of FAIL. If you don't try new things you will never know. The more fans you get out, the more swag selling that goes on. And if you get people out to watch maybe just maybe interest in the sport would start to snoball into something more public and marketable.

And finally, if you are trying to tell me that Pro's are not into it for the $$$, you my friend are seriosly mistaken. Yes, there are a few Pro's that "Play for the Love of the Game", but tell me this. How many "Pro's" would drive to play a major event if there was no purse at the end???? NONE. How many Pro's would keep playing sports if the owners decided to say not pay them for a year. NONE. Good luck trying to convince Pro's to encourage and expand the game if they weren't getting paid. Out of all your points this is the MOST ridiculous.

Pro's are Pro's because they get PAID to play!!!!!!!

Oh and BTW didn't this start out as a Thread about Tiers....sheeesh

 

[ChrisKramer]

Do you have to be a PDGA member to play am3?

Where does the money from the am pools go?

Whether or not PDGA membership is required is a function of the tier of the tournament.

 

[Cgkdisc]

CTRobuck - I think you may have a misunderstanding of most pros in our game. They are amateurs where the competition structure that evolved in this sport still allows them to play for each other's entry fees with cash prizes instead of merch. No one can make a living in this sport strictly on tournament winnings. On topic, the higher tiers just draw the better 'amateurs' who play for cash and the handful of pros who make a living at this because they have other part-time jobs and/or sponsor support to survive.

 

[CTRobuck]

I do undersand. I do realize that this game isn't big enough to make a living on, but if promoted correctly maybe one day it could get to that point. I am not trying to cause problems, but I do see people trying to make something bigger out of this game. It is making it's way into highschools and colleges. I've even heard rumors of world wide movements. Some of these guys go overseas to play and I gurantee they are getting financial help by certain companies to do things like that. I also agree that guys that play this game do it because they love it, but as a Professional Disc Golfer they are being compensated, otherwise I will just call myself a pro because I threw a 5 under the other day. Maybe one day, there will be more revenew and more fans that will put this awesome game over the top. But, until then, if you make the Pro's in this game more accessible more people will get interested and want to be at events, and spend money on disc golf inventory. I am just here to help where I can. I played golf for a living for awhile, and see similarities and ideas that could be used to promote the advancement of Disc. I would love to see this game gain momentum and become a more sustainable game that can gain major coverage. Unfortunately, as you probably know, people have a bad stigma of what they think the people who play this game do and are. Some people out here don't do anything to help that stigma, but there are a lot of great people out there supporting this game, and I have luckily had the pleasure to meet and even play with some of these guys.

No matter what you do; if you play, work or do anything for compensation ($$) you are a professional. Especially if a company invests the time, money and product into sponsoring you. I would almost gurantee some of these Pro's that I go watch wouldn't play in most of the events they play in if they didn't make $$$. I am sure they would still play for the love, and then they would just be top level Amatuers.

 

[eegor]

Tourneys and the seemingly endless requirements and BS give me tired head. I prefer the fun of playing in a club. Your local (insert city here DGA) is the way to go IMO. Local control. Local players. Local politics. A lot more fun.

I know the pros won't play in your events, but it's a lot more fun when "big brother" isn't involved.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Quite a few have signed up to play in the no payout USDGC this year. (I know some are supporting their sponsor.) When you ante up an entry fee such that you're mostly playing for each others' money, there's a name other than professional for playas who do that.

Throw most of what you've learned from ball golf out the window. There's no media stigma against showing DG, simply lack of spectators. This sport is more on a track like softball with big participation and pros will primarily be teachers or run the pro shop at disc golf complexes. Nothing wrong with that because the sport will be big enough to be self-sustaining and facilities improved including free courses. Likely never on broadcast TV which won't matter since we'll be mostly time shifting to watch DG content on the Internet in our phones, pads, computers and holographic glasses.

 

[CTRobuck]

I have a feeling everything I am saying is going in one ear and out the other. A lot of you guys have your opinions and that's where it ends. I hear what you're saying and agree with some, but there are a lot of stubborn people that are to proud to let ideas from other successful sports and events even come around the foundation of this great game. Unfortunately, there seems to be a lot of narrow minded people that keep telling me to "throw most of what you've learened from ball golfout the window". Hate to tell you this but it is the Mother, Brother, Dad, Grandpa, Grandma, Aunt, Uncle of Disc Golf. There is really one major difference, Balls vs Discs. Other than that it's basically all the same. You say they most likely will never show it on broadcast TV. They show badmitton, PuttPutt skins game all sorts of random stuff all it takes is the right marketing and an idea to make an idea grow. I'm just throwing out ideas.

 

[Greatzky]

CTRobuck - I think you may have a misunderstanding of most pros in our game. They are amateurs where the competition structure that evolved in this sport still allows them to play for each other's entry fees with cash prizes instead of merch. No one can make a living in this sport strictly on tournament winnings. On topic, the higher tiers just draw the better 'amateurs' who play for cash and the handful of pros who make a living at this because they have other part-time jobs and/or sponsor support to survive.

Feldberg and Nikko have both had years where they finished with at least $35000. They could make it even without sponsors if they needed to. I think that is enough to "make a living" seeing as how people who work for minimum wage would make less than HALF of that amount.
I would agree that only a handful of players could make a living off winnings alone on tour, but we can see clearly that at least 1-2 can do it every year.

-Scott Lewis
Hyzer Flip Disc Golf

 

[CTRobuck]

Feldberg and Nikko have both had years where they finished with at least $35000. They could make it even without sponsors if they needed to. I think that is enough to "make a living" seeing as how people who work for minimum wage would make less than HALF of that amount.
I would agree that only a handful of players could make a living off winnings alone on tour, but we can see clearly that at least 1-2 can do it every year.

Finaly a voice of reason. Thank you for those statistics. I didn't know exactly how much those guys made but I figured that there are a few that do make enough to live semi-comfortably. My whole point is that we are in a time where this game is gaining major momentum and the more we can do to promote the better off the future will be. I am sure Nikko loves the game of disc as much as Palmer does golf, Nolan Ryan does baseball and Peyton Manning does football but they all get compensated to be a professional not a really good amatuer. And, the more exposure, and ideas we can bring to the table the more this game will grow and prosper. Even if those ideas, God forbid, include Ball Golf or any other successful sport or event.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Both of you have to be joking. That's $35,000 gross not net of entry fees and travel expenses. In Climo's top years, he indicated he rarely cleared $5000 net from tournament winnings out of $40,000 gross. Most of his income was from side jobs with the largest amount from signature discs royalties. I think Nikko may live free and Feldberg teaches, gets paid for clinics plus both get sponsor bonuses.

And CTRobuck, you obviously don't know me but I think most who do would agree I'm one of the most forward thinkers in the sport. I just don't use rose colored glasses when looking ahead in regard to lots of spectators, big money sponsors and pros making a living from playing. Not a negative future by any means, just not built from pro envy but flat out grassroots efforts because the sport is addictive to play and people would rather play than watch.

 

[ChrisKramer]

We may need to take a lesson from Pro Tennis. Players used to barnstorm the country playing matches, putting on clinics, selling tickets to bigger tourneys, all while living on the road. They even had a portable surface that could be installed on top of an existing court to even the surface and improve the level of competition for exhibition matches in smaller towns.

 

[magictenor1]

$35k even if net would not be much when you consider that there are no benefits such as retirement or insurance.

 

[tmahan]

Craigg has adopted an innovative sliding entry fee based on your rating for one of our local A tiers (Seneca Soiree) that is pro only. It goes something like 1000+ pay $100, 990-999 pay $90, and so on (I think it bottoms out at $40). It's not perfect for all events but it's great for the and-and-comer Am who wants to test his mettle against some of the best players in the Mid-Atlantic but might not be willing to drop a Benjamin, or for the veteran lower tier pro who want to play in a well run two day event on a beautiful course at its best against top flight competition and again not have to drop top dollar.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The idea is fine but the stepped entry fees he used in the test are still a sucker bet. The drop off in entry fee needs to be steeper to match the true odds of cashing as you progress down the ratings ladder.

 

[CTRobuck]

Both of you have to be joking. That's $35,000 gross not net of entry fees and travel expenses. In Climo's top years, he indicated he rarely cleared $5000 net from tournament winnings out of $40,000 gross. Most of his income was from side jobs with the largest amount from signature discs royalties. I think Nikko may live free and Feldberg teaches, gets paid for clinics plus both get sponsor bonuses.

And CTRobuck, you obviously don't know me but I think most who do would agree I'm one of the most forward thinkers in the sport. I just don't use rose colored glasses when looking ahead in regard to lots of spectators, big money sponsors and pros making a living from playing. Not a negative future by any means, just not built from pro envy but flat out grassroots efforts because the sport is addictive to play and people would rather play than watch.

Minimizing the accomplishments of this sports top Pro's isn't the best way to accelerate the growth of the game. No matter if he grossed or netted 35000, 30000 or even 20000, he is getting payed to do what he loves. And travel expenses and entry fees, I'm sure were helped out by his sponsors. That's what sponsors are for, that's why he wears and plays their gear.

As far as me not knowing you, well you're right. But, I know and see the superannuated attitudes that a number of people display on here. They say they want this game to become bigger and gain exposure, but it's not gooing to happen if we don't initiate new ideas.

Oh and as far as saying that "the sport is adictive to play and people would rather play than watch" is a moot point. Are you telling me that the average fan sitting at a Baseball game wouldn't rather be on the field running the bases, or the average Football fan wouldn't rather be out there scoring a touchdown. Of course they would! The difference between our game and those games is that in the end the average person can get out and throw a disc and have a good time. People will come to watch what they enjoy, but there has to be a draw. And, IMHO, that has to begin with the accessibility of top Pro's.

 

[Sadjo]

I recently visited my parents and pulled out old Disc Golf Journal's and old Disc Golf World News' from the early 90s and then bought more than a dozen or so back issues of DGWN at GGGT. The articles and coverage and this whole talk of DG reaching the next level is today what it was in 1993.

One thing top sponsored pro get is entry fees to most A and B tiers paid and bonuses for top finishes in major events. They also get so many discs of their choice at no cost along with clothing from sponsors. This info comes from knowing some top players and talking with them about their sponsorship. I even helped one pro get lower level sponsorship from a manufacture of a product they use.

I do think no matter how forward your thinking is (Chuck), it is important to listen to what others have to say and instead of being or coming across as a naysayer you should instead encourage newer players with ideas to get involved and work toward making these things happen.

I work on getting sponsors for my one B tier event I run and every year I have been able to grow the amount of dollars I've raised. If I listened to a lot of the local players in my area I wouldn't have even tried because most said it couldn't be done. It has been done because I simply went and made a presentation and asked for money for everything from tournaments sponsorship to funding for new courses.

CTRobuck...if you believe it can be...start doing it.

Chuck...you're the one that encouraged me to first approach a city council back in Plymouth MN in 1992 to try and get a course at Plymouth Creek. We weren't succesful that time but there is a course at the park now and I can't help but think that that presentation helped lay the ground work for that course eventually getting in the ground.

 

[AcesandChains]

Well said Sadjo.

We do need to encourage ideas. Whether they come from ball golf, or elsewhere. Often, it's not whether an idea will work, but how to make it work.

Personally, I like the idea of a Pro/Am scramble, and it would definitely work to get more Ams out to watch and support. I think this idea would only fly with the Pros at the bigger tournaments though. Think Pros who have obligations to sponsors, who will "encourage" them to participate. Otherwise, I'm afraid that Chuck is right.....most local Pros probably will blow off a scramble like that. There will be some Pros who show up.....probably the same ones who always support the sport locally by working on the courses, etc. But the majority of the local Pros wouldn't see the benefit to them personally and wouldn't attend. I could be wrong though, especially depending on the area you live in. My suggestion.....see if you can get enough local Pros to commit to doing it before you announce anything like that.

Oh, and I heard that Nikko made over $300,000 last year if you include money he made doing advertisements, along with purse money.

 

[Cgkdisc]

This thread started regarding tiers and drifted to talk about pros. My primary point is that focusing on supporting pros and generating spectators has largely been unsuccessful with many creative ideas being tried over the years. The biggest example of that lack of success is the change in format for the USDGC this year. The USDGC has been the largest sustained effort to generate spectators and showcase our top pros for 10 years. Innova has essentially dialed back efforts in that direction and is focusing on more grassroots efforts with EDGE, DGU and performance scoring at the USDGC. This change has hopefully been a wake-up call for those who assumed this big event, big money approach was working. It was eventually clear to Innova after a variety of creative efforts to boost spectator attendance, it would continue to be financially unsustainable without a massive increase in spectators. The PDGA has also restructured the NT and funding several times over the years because efforts to find major sponsors and boost spectatorship were proving unsuccesful.

While it's great to have enthusiasm and ideas for how to move the sport forward - and I certainly welcome, encourage and support more of it - I don't believe it's out of line to try and guide that effort in directions where new ideas have been shown to pay off along with untapped frontiers like college play. I contend that's grassroots efforts such as building more courses, improving courses, running leagues, inviting more of your friends to try disc golf, getting disc education programs in your schools (EDGE), posting cool DG videos on YouTube and writing articles for local and national publications. That's a wide ranging arena in which new and innovative ideas can pay off and fits with what those in the trenches have collectively learned and observed over the years.

None of these grassroots efforts may be as glamorous as big events with top pros and big money similar to other sports models being used as examples we could emulate. But grassroots efforts can and have been shown to work. No one including Innova and the PDGA are giving up with efforts to feature and promote pros and new ideas continue to be attempted in this area. But I believe there's more realization that these efforts aren't likely to lead growth but will follow or, at best, parallel growth of the the sport compared with grassroots efforts.