Scorecard Apps in tournaments?

[DavidSauls]

I'd probably be one of those MA60s....

A couple of questions, though, on how the logistics work.

Can more than one person in a group keep score? That is, can you pass on scorekeeping duties without passing on a phone? (Or when the battery dies on the main one).

Are there any safeguards against someone changing a hole score from, say, 7 holes ago? It can be done on paper, of course, but it's tricky. Does the PDGA app lock in those scores, or leave an audit trail if someone goes back and changes one from earlier in the round, where it wouldn't be noticed?

 

[JC17393]

I'd probably be one of those MA60s....

A couple of questions, though, on how the logistics work.

Can more than one person in a group keep score? That is, can you pass on scorekeeping duties without passing on a phone? (Or when the battery dies on the main one).

Are there any safeguards against someone changing a hole score from, say, 7 holes ago? It can be done on paper, of course, but it's tricky. Does the PDGA app lock in those scores, or leave an audit trail if someone goes back and changes one from earlier in the round, where it wouldn't be noticed?

I believe one can "pass" the scoring duties without passing the phone. The new scorekeeper would simply log in on their own phone and pick up where ever the previous scorekeeper left off. And since the scorekeeper is logging in with their own PDGA number, I would expect that there's a log of what scores are entered by what player.

Also, before scores can be officially submitted, they have to be digitally signed for by each player (with PDGA numbers). In doing so, they're locking their score so when it is submitted, only the TD can edit it.

It should also be noted that the scores are posted live online so anyone can see them and verify them without having the scorekeeping phone in hand.

 

[ru4por]

Really? Stop the next ten people you meet off the course and ask if they are carrying paper and pen. Then ask if they are carrying a phone.

Just because we all have to carry paper to play doesn't make it generally pervasive.

Still, I'd always want to keep paper as an official option. The TD can deal with 17 phone-based groups plus that one last phoneless group (which I would be on) a lot easier than dealing with 18 groups using paper.

I have no kind of cell-u-lar phone device....likely never will. The only thing I have less interest in, than a phone, is having or using one on the course. Pencil and paper falls under the...it ain't broken category, for me. Even as a tournament official. Honestly, it just is not that hard to add up scores. I can count all the way to a hundred.....i'm like a genius.

 

[Orioles_Lefty]

Really? Stop the next ten people you meet off the course and ask if they are carrying paper and pen. Then ask if they are carrying a phone.

Just because we all have to carry paper to play doesn't make it generally pervasive.

Still, I'd always want to keep paper as an official option. The TD can deal with 17 phone-based groups plus that one last phoneless group (which I would be on) a lot easier than dealing with 18 groups using paper.

Pervasive wasn't the right word to use.

People understand how to use pen and paper. It has a low barrier of entry, including cost. People do have to have, carry, and not lose pencils, which I can't say I'm always qualified to do.

 

[Steve West]

Pervasive wasn't the right word to use.

People understand how to use pen and paper. It has a low barrier of entry, including cost. People do have to have, carry, and not lose pencils, which I can't say I'm always qualified to do.

Don't forget that they need to add up small numbers.

I think it should be so that the TD can allow anyone who has a phone to use one instead of paper.

 

[ToddL]

I'd probably be one of those MA60s....

A couple of questions, though, on how the logistics work.

Can more than one person in a group keep score? That is, can you pass on scorekeeping duties without passing on a phone? (Or when the battery dies on the main one).

Are there any safeguards against someone changing a hole score from, say, 7 holes ago? It can be done on paper, of course, but it's tricky. Does the PDGA app lock in those scores, or leave an audit trail if someone goes back and changes one from earlier in the round, where it wouldn't be noticed?

Player A logs out, player B logs in. It's supposed to work fine.

Cheating would be possible. I don't think there's any paper trail.

 

[R-Ogre]

I think what you would need is the ability to have all members of the card keep score individually for everyone on the card (the same way we do now with paper) and then at the end of a round compare digital scorecards. The system could then flag inconsistencies and wouldn't let you "submit" until all the cards agreed. But, that's a lot more dependent on everyone having a phone and having enough battery to make it through the whole round. I'm no computer programmer but it seems like that might be significantly more complex to program too.

 

[DavidSauls]

Cheating is always possible with paper, too. On the bright side, I assume with phones anyone who cares to have a phone can view the card; they don't have to ask to look at it. The vulnerability is the scorekeeper going back 7 holes and changing his score, which wouldn't be noticed. Perhaps it could have a feature that if a previous score (more than 1 hole back) is changed, it appears a different color, or otherwise highlights, to bring attention that it's been changed. Just in case anyone cares.

There are pros and cons for the players; mostly pros for the TDs and staff. As a player I'm in the "I'd rather not" camp, as one of those MA60-types Todd mentioned. As a TD, my events now use alternative formats that wouldn't work, anyway, so it's no issue for me.

 

[biscoe]

My preference would be a move backward in scoring rather than a move "forward"- I counted way less incorrect scorecards when players were all required to sign the darn things. I would love to see that brought back. I would also (at least philosophically) like to see more substantial penalty (DQ) for them being wrong but recognize the reasons that does not occur.

The PDGA isn't developing this technology for it not to be used. It won't be long before it is the norm. You can't fight "progress". The Luddite in me is going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming to it though.

 

[VictorB]

I think that not only using a smartphone/electronic scoring is the direction that the sport is going, that it will probably be required for some tournaments in the near future. Mike at Glide has been toying with the notion of using only electronic scoring in his tournaments. My only concerns are battery life of the devices that are being used - variable depending on other app uses and generation of device - and weather. Getting out a phone is no more complicated (in most conditions) than getting out pen/card/clipboard and writing on it.

Those that think that having devices to do this is too new of technology, please realize that smartphone technology that is capable of doing this has been around at least 15 years...basically the whole modern era of the sport.

Anyone would be able to check the card at any time without having to repeatedly ask. Likely a lot fewer instance of losing/not turning in a card since no one wants to lose their phone. No math errors. In depth stats available if you want them. I personally don't like messing with my phone during play, but also see that it's a valuable alternative and that the positives will almost certainly outweigh potential negatives.

 

[Orioles_Lefty]

Don't forget that they need to add up small numbers.

I think it should be so that the TD can allow anyone who has a phone to use one instead of paper.

In my first sanctioned tournament, I miscalculated a cardmate's score. He said he didn't want to check it, so I submitted the scorecard with error. He was then pissed. I now know to let everyone calculate their own and initial.

 

[filobedo]

A former golf pro is running a club in SC now and the efficiency is staggering. The best thing he has introduced for sanctioned tournaments is players keeping other players scores like in competitive golf. There was a learning curve when he introduced this in the first round for some but easily fixed and understandable going forward.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

A former golf pro is running a club in SC now and the efficiency is staggering. The best thing he has introduced for sanctioned tournaments is players keeping other players scores like in competitive golf. There was a learning curve when he introduced this in the first round for some but easily fixed and understandable going forward.

I agree with this 110%. Coming from a professional golf background, I was aghast at the casualness of score keeping in PDGA sanctioned events. No signatures, most players never bother checking for accuracy, only one card for the group. Mind boggling stuff.

And then there is always the guys who can't be bothered with keeping score for the whole round, which is most of them. Sometimes I start to think that Disc golf is an anti-sport or something. The 18th tee handshake just reinforces that idea. The round ain't over until the last putt falls and congratulations, etc should be held until that time. make everyone sign the scorecard and players can't run away from their group at the end of the round.

 

[ru4por]

I think that not only using a smartphone/electronic scoring is the direction that the sport is going, that it will probably be required for some tournaments in the near future. Mike at Glide has been toying with the notion of using only electronic scoring in his tournaments. My only concerns are battery life of the devices that are being used - variable depending on other app uses and generation of device - and weather. Getting out a phone is no more complicated (in most conditions) than getting out pen/card/clipboard and writing on it.

Those that think that having devices to do this is too new of technology, please realize that smartphone technology that is capable of doing this has been around at least 15 years...basically the whole modern era of the sport.

Anyone would be able to check the card at any time without having to repeatedly ask. Likely a lot fewer instance of losing/not turning in a card since no one wants to lose their phone. No math errors. In depth stats available if you want them. I personally don't like messing with my phone during play, but also see that it's a valuable alternative and that the positives will almost certainly outweigh potential negatives.

I never found others asking to see the card a bother. Only takes one second to pull out a card and hand it to someone.

I have never seen anyone get into a fight with their wife, with a paper card. Never seen a paper card facebook emergency. Never seen anyone turn into an inconsiderate, preoccupied paper card zombie. My sarcastic point is, phone seem to make people stupid....rather not see it while I am engaged in my entertainment time.

I have no problem with you scoring on your phone, I just don't see any benefit to the player. I honestly don't see huge benefits to the tournament staff either. The minute it takes to validate a card of four as they are turned in is not a deal breaker for me.

Are you intending to bring extra phones for those without them, at your tournament....or am I just excluded from participation. Maybe the PDGA needs some Luddite rules?

I saw this happen in steel tip darts. People want to use their phone to keep score and add up their throws. It simply takes longer for them to type in their three darts than it does to add them up in your head. Plus, those folks never learned that a triple 19 is 57, so before adding their three darts together, they have to add each dart to determine it's score.

 

[scarpfish]

I would be more open to the idea of electronic scorecards if they ever came on dedicated devices that were also not somebody's phone, and if we could view that card on our phones when it wasn't our turn to keep score.

 

[filobedo]

I agree with this 110%. Coming from a professional golf background, I was aghast at the casualness of score keeping in PDGA sanctioned events. No signatures, most players never bother checking for accuracy, only one card for the group. Mind boggling stuff.

And then there is always the guys who can't be bothered with keeping score for the whole round, which is most of them. Sometimes I start to think that Disc golf is an anti-sport or something. The 18th tee handshake just reinforces that idea. The round ain't over until the last putt falls and congratulations, etc should be held until that time. make everyone sign the scorecard and players can't run away from their group at the end of the round.

Agreed. I grew up in Myrtle Beach, SC and started playing golf at age 6 which taught me sportmanship, self-awareness, humility, rules, etiquette, competitiveness and math which have all helped in life as an adult. I have played 140 PDGA tournaments in the southeast, northeast and midwest and in the southeast, the rounds are very casual during tournaments. Many of the guys I have played with in the southeast over the years only play when their close friends that play in their division which is fun but different than golf. I can remember playing golf against friends and others competitively when I was young and it was cut throat with trash talk and gamesmanship. The banter in dg sometimes reminds of the scene in The Campaign when Galifianakis tries to trash talk Ferrell. The things about dg that I really had a difficult time with initially was players not betting during rounds because tags and ratings are treated as the holy grail and the lack of etiquette by players talking and moving during play.

 

[DavidSauls]

I honestly don't see huge benefits to the tournament staff either. The minute it takes to validate a card of four as they are turned in is not a deal breaker for me.

Plus the time to deal with errors, times 18 or more scorecards, plus the time to transfer scores to scoreboard, plus time to reset the groups...…

I don't know, I can think of a benefit or two of having those duties automated.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

Plus the time to deal with errors, times 18 or more scorecards, plus the time to transfer scores to scoreboard, plus time to reset the groups...…

I don't know, I can think of a benefit or two of having those duties automated.

Are you going to have an electronic scoreboard as well? If not then you still have to transfer them by hand.

Just because it can be done, does not mean it should be done.

 

[R-Ogre]

Hold up you're saying in tourneys that only one person keeps score for the whole card? I just played my first one so I don't know anything but at that one (a pretty informal one!) each player kept a card and we reconciled at the end of the round. I think we caught mistakes each of 4 rounds that way.

 

[DavidSauls]

Are you going to have an electronic scoreboard as well? If not then you still have to transfer them by hand.

Just because it can be done, does not mean it should be done.

I think the electronic scoreboard is on the phones---the next round's groupings and hole assignments are in the app.

The one place I've semi-participated, had electricity and printed them from a computer, and taped them up.