Scorecard Apps in tournaments?

[agibson]

I definitely sympathize with the OP's trouble with keeping score live on a card.

But, it seems pretty handy to have one universally accessible official record…

Would it be enough for the OP to ask someone else to take his official scorekeeping turn on the card, and to fulfill the spirit of that duty himself keep scores on his phone, and be sure to cross-check at the end?

If everyone was on the net while playing, I suppose you could imagine some secure online app.

Call me a Luddite, but I've never been comfortable using my phone (actually iPod Touch) on the course. Too worried about getting the screen muddy or some such. I do sometimes use it when visiting courses if I didn't have time to print maps (it would be greener...). But, I don't like doing it.

 

[youdidwell]

Here's the link to the event and the website:
http://skoorin.com/?u=scorecard&ID=14661

I always wanted to create something like this, unfortunately I'm a very lazy programmer.

I don't play enough tournaments so I don't have the best perspective but it seems they're off to a good start. Assuming there's a process to mark edited values. With the data is being sent to the main site you wouldn't worry about your individual phone crashing. Of course, I've heard of players losing the paper score cards as well. It really comes down to how stable their setup is, if its reliable and there's a reliable internet connection for phones on the course I can see the benefit. Obviously players not having phone or internet packages, etc. would cause problems.

In the end, it is a solution to something, paper cards, which isn't a problem. It would just add convenience when done right.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Would it be enough for the OP to ask someone else to take his official scorekeeping turn on the card, and to fulfill the spirit of that duty himself keep scores on his phone, and be sure to cross-check at the end?

This is what I do when using Easy Scorecard or the PDGA app. I'll track everyone's score on the phone which then is used to crosscheck the scorecard math. Others in the group take turns doing the paper scoring.

 

[tonyroberts]

In cases where live scoring is being done for the PDGA site, is there a paper backup as well? I've just seen the guy with the phone (usually not a player) asking for the scores. Do the players have access to this record after the round to double check it and to make sure their scores were entered correctly?

 

[Cgkdisc]

Players use a paper scorecard and follow normal scoring procedures even when someone else is doing live scoring.

 

[Timeetyo]

In the end, it is a solution to something, paper cards, which isn't a problem. It would just add convenience when done right.

Agreed, although where I think it will start is with live scoring for major events. Imagine, if you will, that at worlds every card had an app doing this and updated all card's scores live to the net. Us forum geeks here would love that even more than we love the "live" updates from the top 2-3 cards we sometimes get now.

 

[Cgkdisc]

It's been doable on the PDGA website for over 10 years. It's simply a matter of getting it organized like they do for Vibram with volunteer phone uploaders. Gregoire has been getting volunteers feeding him scores to keep up with six or more live cards now.

 

[JC17393]

It's been doable on the PDGA website for over 10 years. It's simply a matter of getting it organized like they do for Vibram with volunteer phone uploaders. Gregoire has been getting volunteers feeding him scores to keep up with six or more live cards now.

The biggest trouble with the online input system as it is now is that for each tournament, there's one password for the entire tournament manager. So each person that logs in to do live scoring has access to everything. That everything includes member information (phone and email addresses, for example), full tournament scores, layout information. It wouldn't be difficult to really mess things up and the TD to have no idea who did the damage.

I think the first step toward doing more live scoring is to have a separate live scoring login (via a browser or an app) that gives the scorer access only to what they need to post scores. That's surely on Ganz's to-do list. Once that's available, any player with a smartphone could be given the opportunity to be a live scorer for his/her group. The password could be printed in the event program or on the paper scorecards. As it is now, the TD is best served entering the password himself for each of his scorers, or doing whatever he can to limit who does know the password.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Yes, password control and the logistics to train players how to do input is a significant issue along with having a temporary scoring area protected from the more official "unofficial" results page.

 

[CreemCheese]

Wow! Y'all are surprising me. I figured this would get a couple views maybe a reply saying something along the lines of use paper and get over it. So glad to see talks of moving more into tech enabled rounds. A few things I thought I'd answer as I'm catching up..

• I was using HQ as an example of where to transcribe the scores, that and I was tired. It would probably be, at most, every 4th-6th hole, when the scorecard would normally be handed off anyway. I could also screenshot and message it just as easily and reliably.
• To deal with the worry of passing off my cell to undesirables, I would use either an old backup or a cheap basic tablet.
• I've always felt guilty about asking someone else to take my scoring duties, also fear there will be that guy that goes a little too close to the rules saying that it has to be rotated to everyone.

 

[markos]

At current moment all our (in Estonian) competitons go to live via http://skoorin.com:
- 60-70% directly via mobile phones without paper (weekly and less major events). The pool has a choice to use a mobile or a paper (or both).
- the major events (like B tier) we are using volunteers to mark to phone, the normal paper are used. But we are moving to realize the idea that 100% will be online.

If you would like to get more about our experiences and use it, contact directly: [email protected].

 

[esdubya]

I've been doing some checking on the state of the art on replacing paper scorecards in tournaments with a smartphone app scorecard.

A few questions now. What events are doing it? Does the PDGA allow it?

TDs know about the crush of counting scores, updating player cards and getting the groups re-assigned. I'm looking to make things easier on my volunteers and have a smoother running event.

I heard them talking about it on the Upshot recently as well.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The PDGA doesn't appear to be doing away with paper scorecards any time soon since approving the scores and/or signing the card will continue as an official procedure. Electronic scoring will likely increase in use to accumulate stats and for confirmation to make sure scores on paper and entered in the app match. The best paper alternative might be for TDs and clubs to make laminated erasable cards for their courses and reuse them if using too much paper is a concern. They probably hold up in the rain pretty well using grease pencils for marking.

 

[JC17393]

I've been doing some checking on the state of the art on replacing paper scorecards in tournaments with a smartphone app scorecard.

A few questions now. What events are doing it? Does the PDGA allow it?

TDs know about the crush of counting scores, updating player cards and getting the groups re-assigned. I'm looking to make things easier on my volunteers and have a smoother running event.

I heard them talking about it on the Upshot recently as well.

I don't think we're ever going to see paper scorecards entirely replaced in tournament play. Too many things can go wrong with technology not to have the paper at least as a back up.

As for the PDGA allowing an all electronic scoring event, they're making some big steps towards making it possible so I don't think they're against it at all. The PDGA's browser-based live scoring user interface has undergone a huge upgrade recently. I used it this weekend to live score my cards at an A-tier and I was extremely impressed with its ease of use.

There's a generic tournament-wide password to gain initial access, then it asks for your last name or PDGA number. For this particular event, it was all tee times with groups set up already, so after logging in, I was automatically presented with the card that I was on. No need to select players or anything, though it was still editable (I was able to delete a player who was moved from our card to another just before the round). The scoring interface is very simple, with par scores already defaulted and +/- buttons to adjust each player up and down as needed.

The fascinating part to me, and the reason I think they are moving in the direction of electronically submitted cards, is that at the end of the round, the total scores are presented with the hole by hole scores...essentially a duplicate of the paper card. So math can be verified on the paper card simply by seeing if it matches the electronic one (and vice versa). Then, there is an option for each player in the group to digitally sign the card, consisting of tapping their name and entering their last name or PDGA number. Once all scores have been signed, you submit the card and the scores are instantly added to the official results (with unofficial ratings). No need to wait for tournament staff to manually enter them.

At this point, the tech is there directly from the PDGA to score an event entirely electronically. It's up to tournament directors whether or not they're willing to do it.

 

[aredoubles]

From what I can tell, I do think the PDGA is very very close to releasing an official scoring app that can (optionally?) replace paper scorecards.

It comes up at nearly every monthly Board of Directors meeting, for example here's the July meeting minutes:
https://www.pdga.com/files/2019-7-9bodmeetingminutes_final.pdf
See page 4, Ganz's technology update (every BoD meeting has this section).

One of those meeting minutes provides a link to documentation for the app:
https://www.pdga.com/help/tournament-management/official-hole-scoring

The official hole scoring feature serves as an official digital scorecard for events. It works similarly to the unofficial hole scoring feature but is intended to be used by players as a replacement for the traditional paper scorecard. After reviewing the requirements, check the "Use for official scoring" box on the Setup page in Tournament Manager to enable official hole scoring for your event.

Here are some features the official hole scoring app provides in addition to the standard hole scoring features.

Provides a method for players to confirm and digitally submit the card.
Round scores are automatically recorded so you don't have to verify scores at the end of each round.
The results page is automatically updated as players submit their scores.
The app can record notes on any hole for any player to help store information about provisionals, rule violations, etc.

One of the BoD meeting minutes even mentions TDs being able to make announcements and notifications through the app, I'm guessing for stuff like inclement weather announcements, last-minute rules clarifications, etc.

This all appears to be separate from the official live-scoring app that some tournaments have used, which is documented here:
https://www.pdga.com/help/tournament-management/scoring-management#livescoring

The Hole Scoring feature, often referred to as simply "live scoring", is used for entering unofficial scores for each hole for individual players.

I don't have any inside info or context on these things, it's just what I've gleaned from scanning through BoD meeting minutes while bored at work. More of us should probably be paying attention to those. Ganz's tech section is the only one I've regularly paid attention to.

 

[biscoe]

From what I can tell, I do think the PDGA is very very close to releasing an official scoring app that can (optionally?) replace paper scorecards.

I have played in a c tier where it was used (Steve Ganz was one of the organizers). I kept a paper scorecard for my group in addition to someone entering them into the app but I don't think every group did this. I like the fact that it allows you to see where you are relative to the rest of the field at any time and I like the ease of generating useful hole by hole data as a course designer. i hate the idea of relying upon it solely though.

 

[esdubya]

Some good threading there.. Nice find 'aredoubles'. Yea it looks like I could have done that at my event this past weekend if I'd known more about it.

Will test it out and look to implement for 2020.

 

[Orioles_Lefty]

If the PDGA were to replace paper scorecards, they would be mandating the ownership of a smart phone and use of phone during the round as requirement for play in a sanctioned tournament. That paper and pen is such a pervasive technology is the strongest reason to keep that technology as the primary means for keeping and reporting scores.

 

[Steve West]

That paper and pen is such a pervasive technology is the strongest reason to keep that technology as the primary means for keeping and reporting scores.

Really? Stop the next ten people you meet off the course and ask if they are carrying paper and pen. Then ask if they are carrying a phone.

Just because we all have to carry paper to play doesn't make it generally pervasive.

Still, I'd always want to keep paper as an official option. The TD can deal with 17 phone-based groups plus that one last phoneless group (which I would be on) a lot easier than dealing with 18 groups using paper.

 

[ToddL]

In Tournament Manager, you can turn on live scoring with a simple click on the Setup page:

Set up a password and distribute it to your players.
Select whether you want to use Official or Unofficial live scoring. Official Live Scoring will immediately input the round totals into tournament manager when the players submit. Unofficial Live Scoring will just show hole scores and will not affect the scores in tournament manager.

It is up to the TD to decide if he wants to make live scoring mandatory or not. At my tournaments, I always encourage it but tell people it's strictly voluntary. After a few years of pushing it, I'm getting close to 90% compliance (those MA60s aren't too keen on it).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp4UomHixfc
https://www.pdga.com/help/tournament-management/official-hole-scoring

I'm a bit skeptical about whether you should fully rely on it for complete tournament management. It's still really easy for a player to mis-type his score in the app and not notice it. Even though the math will always be right, it's possible that someone could enter an incorrect hole score, and there's a good chance they won't notice they did it until it's too late.
Even if you give players a paper scorecard and tell them "paper is the real official score, electronic is just for fun and making math easier" you can get screwups. Players will blindly write down the total score from live scoring onto the paper without verifying the numbers match.

If you're using the Groups feature (tee times or starting holes) in tournament manager, the players on each card will auto-populate when a player logs into the app. If you don't use the Groups feature, the players will have to select their card mates from a list or type in their names. Pretty easy process either way.

Overall, the app works extremely well, and you should give serious thought to using it at your next tournament.

I print out a few sheets of paper with the following instructions and include them with every scorecard. (Or maybe you can print them on the back of the scorecards or something)

We are asking for a player on each card to volunteer to enter scores for PDGA live scoring. If someone on your card is willing to enter scores, please follow these instructions:
- Navigate to pdga.com/score
- Access code is xxxxxxxx
- Select your division, round #, and names of the players on your card
- BE SURE TO START SCORING ON THE CORRECT HOLE
- Enter each player's score on each hole
[if you're using Official Scoring:] - At the end of the round, confirm each player's score by clicking the ! button next to their name.