Size of the Lie

[Dan Ensor]

With all this hubbub, I figured it was a fine time to discuss the flaws in stance rules. Specifically, the size of the lie, and how it affects stance.


My thoughts are basically that the lie is too small. I don't think the infinitesimally small LoP is easily enough hit, and the 30cm length is also too short.

The LoP is the one I worry about most. I'm often unsure of what parts of my foot are contacting the ground. I'm not exactly sure when my disc is released (relative to my foot points of contact). And I'm not an uninformed thrower.

The 30cm ... I don't feel it's hard to hit, but I do think is shorter than it needs to be. What if I do take 2' behind my lie? I'm aware that some times it's an advantage, but some times it would make play significantly safer for the players.

Although I like the cut-and-dry nature of stand and deliver, I don't think that's the direction we should go. I think there's some possibility that SnD would lead to more injuries, or shorter careers. Some people have also mentioned less entertaining shots being thrown. But mostly (for me), I don't see that as an athletic movement that translates well to other sports (even ball golf). That's the greatest thing about DG for me; it translates into so many things.

Anyway, vote, talk, rant, etc.!

 

[Pbmercil]

I can see extending either the length or the width but not both. As I think 30 cm is pretty easy to hit I voted width. I have no desire to go to stand and deliver, I just feel like that is a boring way to plsy

 

[Mulligan]

I voted for stand and deliver basically cause I think there shouldn't be a full run up X step on fairway shots. I'd like to see some sort of modification in between in reality. Maybe an 18in leeway with the expectation of no more than a shuffle step into the throw.

 

[KniceZ]

What is your suggested "extended width" - anywhere behind the disc?

 

[JC17393]

Where's the poll option for "people should practice more"? Or is that the "no change" option?

The lie as it's defined currently isn't a difficult concept to understand and having a support point in contact with it at release really isn't that difficult a thing to accomplish. The problem, IMO, is because it doesn't get properly called enough, people don't practice the skill enough. If it was called more often, the impetus would be there to practice the skill required to hit the mark every time on a fairway throw. The chicken and the egg.

Other than forcing stand and deliver, I've yet to see a proposed change to this rule that makes it decidedly easier to comply and enforce than the current rule.

 

[Dan Ensor]

What is your suggested "extended width" - anywhere behind the disc?

That sounds reasonable. About the square a Condor would fit in, maybe. Then someone would sell "lie mats" that are good grip and the size of a lie. Nobody's going to sell a lie string.


JC: Yeah, that'd be "no change". I don't necessarily practice it, but do place small towels (probably less than 30cm long) on slick lies that I hit pretty much every time.

Our ability to stretch out from a lie already makes it easy to change our lines significantly. Another 30cm in any direction isn't going to be a large change in any way but ease of hitting it imo.

 

[Smigles]

I voted for stand and deliver basically cause I think there shouldn't be a full run up X step on fairway shots.

Yeah tell that to those 1000+ foot par 5 holes.

 

[runningDoc]

I can see extending either the length or the width but not both.

ah so its now a length vs girth debate.

 

[rocthecourse]

ah so its now a length vs girth debate.

 

[JNichols]

I gotta say, I am against the stand and deliver approach. As someone else stated above, PRACTICE. Pay attention to your footing, use a marker, or disc, even in casual rounds and just learn how to do it as the rules already state. It seems funny to me that the answer for not getting called on a foot fault from the fairway on a wide open 500+ ft hole (Yes, I am referencing the the great Stokely debacle of 2015) is stand and deliver. But, I may be the minority. Just seems to me like the answer is follow the rules already in place.

 

[runningDoc]

I've seen someone do a semi run up to a step out pivot backhand, to get some extra distance around a tree, and it was glorious.

Usually those stand and deliver step out backhands are tough enough to get your footing right/legal...

The run up consisted of the guy taking two steps backward , coming up to the mini, perfectly planting his foot behind the mini, then doing the step out backhand. Man that was something I didn't even know was possible but totally makes sense to try it.

 

[Kodachrome]

i feel it should be extended behind the disc. the width isn't an issue. getting close enough to your lie, trying for a full pivot on your shot while worrying about kicking your mini is.

 

[coupe]

Our ability to stretch out from a lie already makes it easy to change our lines significantly. Another 30cm in any direction isn't going to be a large change in any way but ease of hitting it imo.

Disagree strongly. In the woods, an additional 30cm can easily make the difference between a clean and an obstructed look at a window, or between hitting or not hitting—and even having to worry about hitting or not hitting—a tree or another obstacle on your follow through; and on open holes, it can easily be the difference between planting on secure or sketchy ground.

 

[Dan Ensor]

Disagree strongly. In the woods, an additional 30cm can easily make the difference between a clean and an obstructed look at a window, or between hitting or not hitting—and even having to worry about hitting or not hitting—a tree or another obstacle on your follow through; and on open holes, it can easily be the difference between planting on secure or sketchy ground.

So can 6" more height, and only the tall people get that advantage.

I can stretch about 7'. 30cm only takes me to about 8'. It can easily make the difference, but only about 12% of the time that you're in jail.

 

[ToddL]

I voted for stand and deliver basically cause I think there shouldn't be a full run up X step on fairway shots. I'd like to see some sort of modification in between in reality. Maybe an 18in leeway with the expectation of no more than a shuffle step into the throw.

Man, if you think the current lie creates controversy, I can't imagine what that proposal would do.

I voted for leave it as it is. It's a very cut and dried rule with very little room for interpretation. I understand that it's difficult to judge exactly 30cm by sight, especially if you're a reasonable distance away from the thrower. But along those lines, adding an arbitrary width into the judgment call would only make things worse.

Are you allowed 2" to each side of the line? Well you looked like you were 3" off the line for that throw.
Stand and deliver? It looks like your toe came off the ground on your reachback - that counts as a runup.
No more than a shuffle step into the throw? Your shuffle had a hop in it - that's not a shuffle anymore.

 

[JNichols]

Man, if you think the current lie creates controversy, I can't imagine what that proposal would do.

I voted for leave it as it is. It's a very cut and dried rule with very little room for interpretation. I understand that it's difficult to judge exactly 30cm by sight, especially if you're a reasonable distance away from the thrower. But along those lines, adding an arbitrary width into the judgment call would only make things worse.

Are you allowed 2" to each side of the line? Well you looked like you were 3" off the line for that throw.
Stand and deliver? It looks like your toe came off the ground on your reachback - that counts as a runup.
No more than a shuffle step into the throw? Your shuffle had a hop in it - that's not a shuffle anymore.

Brinster would be Screwed with a shuffle step.

 

[Pbmercil]

Yeah, I changed my mind. Adding width to the lie would make it worse. Because now people could miss the LOP but you'd have to decide if they missed the LOP by too much. Nevermind, I change my answer to no change.

I have no desire to go to stand and deliver.

 

[Jowie]

Honestly, arrow shaped markers would make it easier.

 

[JNichols]

Honestly, arrow shaped markers would make it easier.

True. O.O

 

[teemkey]

Honestly, arrow shaped markers would make it easier.

Or, we could attach a 30cm string to our mini. Must touch string.