The Augusta National of dg

[Hampstead]

Every course I've watched on video or played simply has holes that are subpar. Some great holes exist out there for sure, but too many seem like fillers. Either they are too easy, too tricked up, too short, too hard where no real lines exist (fairway), etc.

Even a course like Maple Hill has holes that are just mediocre to watch and I imagine play. Having the right mix of difficulty, fair line, etc is a tough thing.

Not to mention a course like Augusta National spends millions of dollars on aesthetics and upkeep every year. No way can we match that yet. Not to mention many millions on design itself and construction.

Disc golf has a ways to go to achieve an elite type of course. I can see it happening maybe in 10-20 though possibly.

When you building that dream course, oldmanhotair?

What's that? You like to complain but not do anything about it?

True to form.

Got it.

 

[nothinbuttree]

Been playing there periodically since it opened. Concession stand has never been open and I can't think of a reason why it would be. Maybe if it had a major tournament, but definitely not for a C-tier or casual play.

That sort of begs the question of why it's there. The concession stand and amphitheater (or whatever it is) do pre-date the actual course, so maybe it was only there for whatever events would pack those stands. Even a C tier would be a great reason to have it open. Seems like it could make a little coin selling drinks, snacks, etc, maybe even a few discs. I would buy something there whenever I played, just to help support the course.

But the fact that it is not open in no way detracts from the great course!

 

[Hampstead]

That sort of begs the question of why it's there. The concession stand and amphitheater (or whatever it is) do pre-date the actual course, so maybe it was only there for whatever events would pack those stands. Even a C tier would be a great reason to have it open. Seems like it could make a little coin selling drinks, snacks, etc, maybe even a few discs. I would buy something there whenever I played, just to help support the course.

But the fact that it is not open in no way detracts from the great course!

The amphitheater used to be the home of the historical drama Blue Jacket. That is all.

 

[Ryan P.]

That's a pretty good summation of the various aspects of Augusta that make it Augusta.

I think you are missing one thing though. Call it "Pedigree", perhaps. The Masters doesn't exist without Bobby Jones, the first superstar of the game, who founds both the club and the tournament. The Masters is a major, but not really for any "good" reason. It's not an official championship of any kind.

Had the USGA let Jones and Augusta host the US Open, it's even possible we wouldn't even have The Masters tournament as it exists today.

So, if Paul McBeth retires and starts a private, gorgeous disc golf club, that hosts a prestigious tournament each year, and Paul does the invites, that becomes a major, then we'll have our Augusta National. Who knows, maybe he'll become a part owner at Eagle's Crossing. Until then, something like Maple Hill is probably as close as you get.

Thanks. I'd say I included that as "History," but I agree that there's nothing like that quite yet.

 

[DatRedDude]

Wouldn't the course(s) in Augusta's backyard fit the criteria, the IDGC? Whether you say Jackson or Steady Ed alone, or add Warner to include all three. That seems more elite. If you're going for a singular course, I'd mention Idlewild.

IDGC is pretty awesome, road tripped last year with 2 buddies and played 20 courses in 5 states over 6 days. Played all 3 IDGC courses, there is a course north of there called Langley Pond that i thought was better than any of the 3 IDGC courses.

 

[biscoe]

Two newly installed courses laying claim to the title. Lake Marshall and Eagles Crossing. Who's your pick?

Just to clarify... stating that the vision is to build the Augusta National of dg is not the same as "laying claim to the title"

 

[elmexdela]

some traditions need to die

winthrop is one of them

 

[ballgolfconvert]

When you building that dream course, oldmanhotair?

What's that? You like to complain but not do anything about it?

True to form.

Got it.

If you are going to be a bully, at least bully the right person. i was the one with the plans of building a course, which is still on hold for a few more years. It wasn't OMD.

 

[johnrhouck]

What about those courses in Texas that moved earth and spent tons building courses? Selah Ranch?

Hey, Lowe Good to see you back in action. Actually, not much dirt moved at Selah in making those courses. We did bring the lake into Lakeside #7 to separate the first two landing areas, but I don't recall that we did any mounding at all... yet.

 

[Olorin]

Hey, Lowe Good to see you back in action.

Thanks John,

Man, do I ever miss the 2 Circle R courses in Wimberly!! When I played Meadow in 2001 and Hill in 2002 they were some of the first long epic courses that I had ever played. Even today I can still feel that tingle of excitement and awe that I felt playing the Meadow. That lifetime memory is the mark of an epic course!

Today, most people seem to be unaware of how deeply entrenched Steady Ed's design philosophy of short, easy par 3 courses was the reigning paradigm and in the DNA of course design. (Of course, disc technology upgrades have also helped change what shots are possible.) Your visionary championship designs were way ahead of their time, and now look at the current trend for long courses!

 

[johnrhouck]

Thanks John,

Man, do I ever miss the 2 Circle R courses in Wimberly!! When I played Meadow in 2001 and Hill in 2002 they were some of the first long epic courses that I had ever played. Even today I can still feel that tingle of excitement and awe that I felt playing the Meadow. That lifetime memory is the mark of an epic course!

That's so great to hear, Lowe. The whole point is for players to enjoy the experience. Those were good days, and I'm glad you were able to get down to Wimberley.

Today, most people seem to be unaware of how deeply entrenched Steady Ed's design philosophy of short, easy par 3 courses was the reigning paradigm and in the DNA of course design. (Of course, disc technology upgrades have also helped change what shots are possible.) Your visionary championship designs were way ahead of their time, and now look at the current trend for long courses!

I did get a bit of pushback about having par 4's and 5's back in those days, but not too much. Now, of course, we just have to guard against holes getting long just for the sake of being long. And then that whole rope OB thing that seems to come with it. But it's a great time to be a disc golfer -- no doubt about that.

 

[Olorin]

That's so great to hear, Lowe. The whole point is for players to enjoy the experience. Those were good days, and I'm glad you were able to get down to Wimberley.

In my personal database I rate on a 0-10 scale and here were my Wimberley ratings...
Circle R: Meadow = 9.3
Circle R: Hill = 9

I miss those courses!

 

[ChrisWoj]

Doesn't matter if you or your friends like it. The question is what course is most Augusta-like in our sport. Winthrop seems to fit those parameters best so far. Make the case for another course in your area. I'm thinking Smugg's is also on the rise with both Fox Run and Brewster Ridge.

I'm with the dude. Winthrop Gold is NOT that good. The only thing that makes it "Augusta-like" is the fact that it regularly holds a prestigious event. It is incapable of being considered a top tier course without massive amounts of rope. It has the event-prestige of USDGC, making it somewhat August-like in terms of that. But the course just isn't that good.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Being Augusta-like isn't necessarily about quality but history and titles. There are many ball golf courses globally that are equal to or nicer than Augusta in quality of the challenge and/or amenities but do not have the titles, history and influence on the sport in the U.S. Certainly, courses in the British Isles top even Augusta for longevity, history and titles.

I think you need to at least be CAPABLE of both elements.

For example - if you hosted USDGC on Winthrop Gold for another 30 years, the course would never achieve that truly awe-inspiring feeling of beauty that you can get on an Augusta. It just can't. It is not capable. You get a sense of awe and can be overwhelmed by the HISTORY of Winthrop Gold, but not the beauty.

However - if you spent the next 30-50 years holding a memorable Major on WR Jackson - or a few other places mentioned in this thread - that feeling of awe at the beauty could compound with the prestige. WR Jackson is CAPABLE of both elements that Augusta gives you.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I think you need to at least be CAPABLE of both elements.

For example - if you hosted USDGC on Winthrop Gold for another 30 years, the course would never achieve that truly awe-inspiring feeling of beauty that you can get on an Augusta. It just can't. It is not capable. You get a sense of awe and can be overwhelmed by the HISTORY of Winthrop Gold, but not the beauty.

However - if you spent the next 30-50 years holding a memorable Major on WR Jackson - or a few other places mentioned in this thread - that feeling of awe at the beauty could compound with the prestige. WR Jackson is CAPABLE of both elements that Augusta gives you.

Again, it doesn't matter for the purposes of this thread which is what course is most Augusta-like without qualifiers. It may pain you that it's not aesthetically beautiful in your eyes even though the course is immaculately prepared. But it hits on the more important factors mentioned. If beauty is the only parameter being assessed, there will be many non-objective candidates based on player taste for terrain and aesthetics.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Again, it doesn't matter for the purposes of this thread which is what course is most Augusta-like without qualifiers. It may pain you that it's not aesthetically beautiful in your eyes even though the course is immaculately prepared. But it hits on the more important factors mentioned. If beauty is the only parameter being assessed, there will be many non-objective candidates based on player taste for terrain and aesthetics.

I believe the beauty of collegiate baseball field walls, holes pigeonholed in between sidewalks created for other purposes, teeing next to a coliseum entrance, and with a shot that requires throwing across a parking lot is being DRAMATICALLY overstated by your insinuation that the aesthetics are limited to my eyes as though I would be in the minority in not considering this beautiful.

I would dare say that objectively a STRONG majority would subjectively find Winthrop Gold to not be a beautiful course. It has SOME beautiful holes, it is on a pretty college campus. It is NOT a beautiful course, it is not on a property designed to be pretty in the way a golf sport course is pretty.

The only thing that makes Winthrop "Augusta-like" is the prestige of USDGC. If you are looking at a total package of elements - Winthrop Gold has one singular element. Others may fail to achieve Augusta-like status because they lack the annual prestige event, but the addition of a prestige event could vault them over time to that status.

Winthrop could not, barring the overhaul of the property as a whole to focus on disc golf, achieve all of the elements necessary to be "Augusta-like."

 

[Cgkdisc]

The only thing that makes Winthrop "Augusta-like" is the prestige of USDGC.

And that's enough for the purposes of this thread. Consider the history, the drama, elite players, its influence on rules and course design, highest first place payout for years, requirement to qualify and even state installed signs on the highway stating it's the home of the United States Disc Golf Championship.

 

[ChrisWoj]

And that's enough for the purposes of this thread. Consider the history, the drama, elite players, its influence on rules and course design, highest first place payout for years, requirement to qualify and even state installed signs on the highway stating it's the home of the United States Disc Golf Championship.

So in your opinion - over all other possible elements that could contribute to Winthrop Gold being Augusta-like - the only thing that matters is that its hosted USDGC for 20+ years. It supersedes all other possible elements. The fact that the course is set around a college campus doesn't take away from that. The fact that the course is unplayable at the highest level without massive amounts of rope doesn't take away from that. The fact that it can not be be played year round (I get that Augusta National is extremely exclusive - but it IS playable) doesn't take away from that. The fact that Augusta National has been for decades a property improved upon consistently for the pure purpose of its quality as a golf course doesn't take away from that for you. None of those factors, key for me being beauty and emphasis on the property as a golf course, but none of those factors supersedes the fact that it hosts USDGC for you.

I would be TOTALLY AGREEABLE to the idea that USDGC is the Masters of disc golf. But USDGC being the Masters of disc golf is only one element out of many that could go into calling Winthrop Gold the Augusta National of disc golf.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Looking at everything - if you are fine with the event changing names often, Maple Hill is probably the closest I can think of to Augusta National in DG, if the fact of hosting an annual huge event is a big part of what gives it that cachet.

 

[Ryan P.]

I would dare say that objectively a STRONG majority would subjectively find Winthrop Gold to not be a beautiful course. It has SOME beautiful holes, it is on a pretty college campus. It is NOT a beautiful course, it is not on a property designed to be pretty in the way a golf sport course is pretty.

The only thing that makes Winthrop "Augusta-like" is the prestige of USDGC. If you are looking at a total package of elements - Winthrop Gold has one singular element. Others may fail to achieve Augusta-like status because they lack the annual prestige event, but the addition of a prestige event could vault them over time to that status.

2 replies (one for each paragraph)

After safety, aesthetics is the second most important part of a course. This comes from some research in golf, but also from what I pick up on threads on here. I say this because I think it supports your statement that many people would agree with you that it isn't a beautiful course. Most people that play want to be out in nature. Some holes feel very much that way (4-6 stand out to me), but the majority of the course feels manufactured with the OB and buildings.

I agree with you that the major is the biggest parallel. The others are so small that they might not even be noteworthy to mention, but both Augusta and WG have had a large influence in course design. Augusta was one of, if not the first course of its kind in the US (falling into the heroic school). It has certainly influenced many to mimic it. WG was one of, if not the first course with ropes. There's no doubt that others have ran with that idea. WG is also one of the earlier courses to offer heroic type holes.