The Myth of Disc Pivot

[DiscJay]

The pull line image isn't so much about coming in at an angle as it is getting into the power pocket with a shoulder pause. The abrupt turn is telling of how far forward Dan gets the disc before chopping his elbow, how slow the disc is going when it gets there, and then how explosive the acceleration is during his elbow/wrist release. It's all about the increasing arc radius or w/e Blake was talking about in that other thread but there is some funky stuff that goes on in the muscles of his arms and hands that makes him a distance freak too.

If you've been stuck at 350' for a long time BroD, you probably rotate your shoulders too fast too early, don't get your elbow forward enough, grip too hard and too early, and don't have your weight centered during your throw. Being off balance can really kill the pace of your shot, as you're forced into bad timing because you're essentially falling over. Also, a video critique is the obvious way to get useful feedback that isn't speculation.

I am learning a lot about my throw in this thread, funny I have not seen Blake post this thread to begin with. Of course it has been about a year since I have been fully active on this site due to life's busy chores.

Cat, my muscles are freaky because I do a lot of wrist pushups nah, I do a lot of workouts that strengthen fast twitch fibers.

My intake on all of this, when it first started to make sense to me I accompanied Blake quite a lot last year (2012 now, geez!) with a few gentlemen on this newly found "rail" theory. Pulling from outside-in is something I consciously made an effort to do so because I accidentally did something weird once on the course and had an immediate "2nd" breakthrough, but it wasn't just the outside-in pull as a lot of players do this, even though that was what made me realize that I am doing something else far superior of what I was previously doing. I did not realize what it was until I spent another godawful aching 13 hours in the field.

The explanation fits perfectly of how I felt while I was throwing with this new found technique, and I found it by going back to the grass roots of where it all started, and I basically tweeked a bigger circular motion I got from the pec drill while gaining faster acceleration due to the new redirection while I was experimenting with the "outside-in" pull. My throw is very "pec drill" savvy. Easy to control and very consistent, also easy to find flaws if I am having a bad day and that is all I shaped my throw around in the last 3 - 4 years or so, not power. Power just came from experimenting from my mistakes.

This post was the one that led to my "breakthrough" though I think I still have timing issues because the disc ejects to the right on almost all my throws now. The outside-in path helped me get further into the power pocket and the disc comes out way faster. I think I am getting my shoulders around too soon and that leads to my throws coming out about 10 to fifteen degrees right of my intended line. Timing is the hardest thing to work on. Any tips?

 

[JR]

Slowing down. Then slowing down then retardely slowing down. Then stopping the motions in each stage of the throw to strike a pose in front of a mirror or otherwise freezing and checking where everything is preferably with a high speed camera but a regular one helps too.

do you begin the arm pull before the plant step lands? The secobd reason is not getting the eisc close to the right pec.

brace the plant step for a while to get deep into the power pocket.

 

[DiscJay]

Slowing down. Then slowing down then retardely slowing down. Then stopping the motions in each stage of the throw to strike a pose in front of a mirror or otherwise freezing and checking where everything is preferably with a high speed camera but a regular one helps too.

do you begin the arm pull before the plant step lands? The secobd reason is not getting the eisc close to the right pec.

brace the plant step for a while to get deep into the power pocket.

I think you are right. I will need to re-visit slowing down. I had a few really good launches when I slowed down to see if I could "feel" more and try to get the power pocket more ingrained. I will definitely get on that.

I will have to check on whether or not I am starting the pull before the plant step. I am working more on stand still throws at the moment but I definitely do take a few throws each session with a run up. I would bet that I am starting the pull a little early though, good call.

I have been working separately on making the plant step "take longer" to lead with my hip. I will work on that also. Thanks very much for the tips. I will have to get the video camera out and take some high speed vids to look at and maybe post them up here for y'all to take a look at.

 

[DiscJay]

So I went to the field this weekend and slowing way down again seems to have paid off as far as getting the disc further into the power pocket and getting the timing right to get the disc to come out straight in front of me and not off to the right. My concern now is that the disc comes out hyser everytime. I cannot seem to throw flat anymore, any thoughts?

I really appreciate the help.

 

[Stringbean]

Throw about 50 annhyzers. Then try to throw flat.

 

[soupdeluxe]

Hey all
Love this thread and reread it for hidden nuggets on a regular basis. Question to you all is please explain what Blake is talking about here. your rip finger should not feel any "pull" by the disc. the rip finger should feel like it's "pushing" the disc. in those cases, your pivot has occurred correctly.
The part I cannot wrap my head around is the push. does this mean you are pushing the disc into your palm with the tip of your index finger? It seems to me your finger in the curled position is in no position to push? Any clarification would be great. Thanks
SD

 

[DiscJay]

Hey all
Love this thread and reread it for hidden nuggets on a regular basis. Question to you all is please explain what Blake is talking about here. your rip finger should not feel any "pull" by the disc. the rip finger should feel like it's "pushing" the disc. in those cases, your pivot has occurred correctly.
The part I cannot wrap my head around is the push. does this mean you are pushing the disc into your palm with the tip of your index finger? It seems to me your finger in the curled position is in no position to push? Any clarification would be great. Thanks
SD

I am similarly confused by this concept. I remember Blake saying something to the effect of at the rip the last thing you should feel is your fingers pulling the disc toward your palm, not the disc pulling out of your fingers, or something like that. I think I have had that feeling(fingers pulling the disc back into my palm)on a few throws but not sure, haha.

 

[Stringbean]

That is a great question. I understand what he means by the rip finger not feeling any "pull" from the disc (if you feel pull from the disc, then the disc is slipping out) . I think the push is not only the index finger but rather the pinch point between the index and thumb. In another thread, Blake discusses the importance of forward thumb pressure. My guess is that as the hand/wrist opens and as the disc pivots, the forward thumb pressure at the pinch point creates the push feeling that he is talking about. Sheeeshhh, sometimes I feel like I am trying to interpret the bible.

 

[DiscJay]

So I played a couple rounds this weekend working only on getting the disc into the power pocket and I am happy to report that I am getting the same or more distance with significantly less effort. I have fixed the issue I was having with the disc only coming out hyzer and mostly fixed the issue I was having with the disc coming out to the right of my intended line. Now to figure out how to get more distance. I have to say my accuracy is up too. Thanks for all the help. You guys are awesome.

P.S. What I meant by working only on getting the disc into the power pocket is that on my throws I was concentrating on getting the disc as far into the power pocket as I could and then I would just kind of let the momentum of the throw work to eject the disc. It is amazing how fast the disc comes out with so much less effort.

 

[JR]

Those are the results of many so it sounds good. Don't worry the distance will come with practice. Timing is mostly the issue for the majority for getting more D.

 

[DiscJay]

Yeah, I think I need to work on the timing of clamping down on the grip too, possibly grip strength itself. I definitely have worked out the issue of releasing to the right and I just have to work on dialing in the accuracy.

 

[DiscJay]

So I was thinking about my recent breakthrough and I realized that the feel of the throw is much different than my "old style." I am a right handed thrower and when I am bringing the disc into the "power pocket" these days it feels like I am bring it "around" in a counterclockwise arc into the pocket slowly and then without even thinking about it there is a reversal to a clockwise arc out of the pocket that is so much faster than my old throw. I don't know if there is actually a counterclockwise arc happening into the pocket, but that is how it feels. It all started when I was trying to imitate Beto's rail, as Blake called it, and pulling outside-in as Beto himself described it. I found that the best way for me to get deeper into the pocket was a rounding feeling. Hope this makes sense. I figure it might help others who are trying to recreate Beto's rail. Let me know what y'all think.

 

[PMantle1]

Question to you all is please explain what Blake is talking about here.

I have not understood one thing he has said about the minutia of the throw. Looks completely made up to me. IMHO. YMMV.

 

[DiscJay]

Question to you all is please explain what Blake is talking about here.

I have not understood one thing he has said about the minutia of the throw. Looks completely made up to me. IMHO. YMMV.

You mean Blake's stuff? It is making more and more sense to me as I make more breakthroughs in my throw.

 

[Stringbean]

I agree, the rail method definitely works. You just have to go slow around the rail and when you get the heavy feeling, you grip down and pull the edge around. Hand at 12:00 at the critical point and 4:00 at release. My problem is that my fundamentals are terrible so I can't get any consistency and haven't figured out how to add power to the throw using my core.

 

[PMantle1]

Question to you all is please explain what Blake is talking about here.

I have not understood one thing he has said about the minutia of the throw. Looks completely made up to me. IMHO. YMMV.

You mean Blake's stuff? It is making more and more sense to me as I make more breakthroughs in my throw.

Yes, and I'm sure it's just me.

 

[Star Shark]

So I was thinking about my recent breakthrough and I realized that the feel of the throw is much different than my "old style." I am a right handed thrower and when I am bringing the disc into the "power pocket" these days it feels like I am bring it "around" in a counterclockwise arc into the pocket slowly and then without even thinking about it there is a reversal to a clockwise arc out of the pocket that is so much faster than my old throw. I don't know if there is actually a counterclockwise arc happening into the pocket, but that is how it feels. It all started when I was trying to imitate Beto's rail, as Blake called it, and pulling outside-in as Beto himself described it. I found that the best way for me to get deeper into the pocket was a rounding feeling. Hope this makes sense. I figure it might help others who are trying to recreate Beto's rail. Let me know what y'all think.

The reversal you're feeling is the palm ejection. You come in clockwise, the disc comes shooting out of your hand the opposite direction your hand is travelling and then starts to pivot around the pinch between thumb and index finger. That's the pulling you're feeling.

 

[JR]

That can flatten a spot in the index finger. It can be that hard. But squeezing the disc hard can do it too. Simultanous execution... At times a flat spot on the finger can last a minute for me.

 

[DiscJay]

So how far into the power pocket is too far? What is the sweet spot before you start getting into diminishing returns or negatively affecting the throw? I am trying to figure out where that point is. I suppose it will be different for different people depending on arm length and stuff. What are everyone's thoughts?

 

[JR]

So how far into the power pocket is too far? What is the sweet spot before you start getting into diminishing returns or negatively affecting the throw? I am trying to figure out where that point is. I suppose it will be different for different people depending on arm length and stuff. What are everyone's thoughts?

I have come across one clear case of too far and that is straightening the upper arm (shoulder socket to the elbow) at the target as far it will go without straightening the elbow bend -OUCH major chacne of an injury!!!! I as an 50+ barely thrower start the arm acceleration way later than local 70+ MPH thrower. The faster you throw and the more hip twist (mine is negligible now thanks to lower back injury) you have the earlier and faster the arm acceleration needs to happen and harder earlier acceleration rate of the acceleration too for power throwers. So it is very likely that things change as you progress and switch forms. They are so different worlds that i do not wonder at all about athletes arguing me a couch potate almost about when and how hard the arm should pull. It seems inconcievable to power throwers that somebody could pull so late. Well it is inconcievable how bad being injured can mess up your form too so it is understandable. 360s are different to Voigt style technique to what i describe for accuracy drives in my signature. YMMV will definitely vary on any given day between those forms alone because they all have different initial speeds and potentials of body weight shift so things will happen at a different pace. Timings have to be adjusted to work optimally for each technique. Thus the flight distances are great gauges for proper timing. Another great measure is how hard you snap. As in how hard it squashes your fingers and how straight the disc flies.