The Myth of Disc Pivot

[aDave]

Since this thread seems pretty active and it's tangentially ( lol, puns ) related to the discussion, I'll leave this here...

I've been rebuilding my drive this winter and have had a thought that I need you guys to give me feedback on:
I started thinking about the reach back and pull into the power pocket separately from torso rotation and have come to a realization about timing ( I think ).
Stand up straight and hold a disc out in front of you and move the disc into the power pocket without torso rotation. Now you are in the right pec position or thereabouts.
Now the fun part is to go into the whip, again without torso rotation. I've found that, for me the disc "bounces" out of the right pec at about 120 degrees from my chest.
All I have to do is to is perform that 30 degree twist at the right time to keep the disc following a straight line from the beginning of the reach back to the rip.
I've been doing this out in the field and it feels right, but isn't all there yet.

Am I nuts?

 

[JR]

That is the timing i have been using with ball of the foot pivoting for control drives. Due to an injured right ankle. I should test heel pivots if i have healed enough. A busted knee has stopped attempts at bracing more so distance drives have the or about the same timing although there could be a lot more late acceleration available from really jamming the heel into a single place. Allowing a massively quick hip twist. Something that does not concern my semi jammed up lower back that is over the worst part of an injury there too. Meh. Injuries here injuries there and everywhere :roll:

 

[aDave]

Nope I I'm not nuts.
in the last two days I've been overthrowing ~310 foot wooded tunnels with mid weight esp comets on low hyzer lines. I hit at least 300 today with a 150 gram ruby ! Wtf? It's a real jump in skill for me. When the timing is right, I don't miss a gap and the disc just hangs in the air like it doesn't want to stop. I've been working on this for years and this is the first real breakthrough since I hit 300 for the first time.
Everything I read here is true it just took me reframing it in a way that my body could feel. Damn I love this game. I can't wait for the next breakthrough.

 

[JR]

You should test what you can get with faster discs on an open field. For long term growth note that things change when you move quicker. Also bracing should increase d potential but it needs a quicker or earlier arm acceleration so that you can get to the right pec position. So form and timing need to be checked at least annually. Before the season is a good idea so that you have time to train the changes and get to solidify them during the season.

 

[aDave]

Thanks jr. I've noticed more force on the pant leg as a result, and the hardest part of it has been speeding up the pull exactly like you said. I'm gonna head out to a field next week. Might be time to add something faster than the orc to the bag.

 

[itlnstln]

So how far into the power pocket is too far? What is the sweet spot before you start getting into diminishing returns or negatively affecting the throw? I am trying to figure out where that point is. I suppose it will be different for different people depending on arm length and stuff. What are everyone's thoughts?

I think if you get your elbow out in front properly, getting the disc into the power pocket will take care of itself. I don't think you want to actively place the disc into the power pocket as you might end up losing the springing action in the wrist that you're looking for. That said, I basically get the disc to the right pec position and the disc is touching the inside of my forearm in the power pocket. I don't think you can get much farther than that. If I were to try to do anything else, it would feel forced and take away from the shot.

 

[DiscJay]

I hear ya itlnstln, that is about where I get into the power pocket too. I actually feel a bit of a bounce off my forearm on some of my bigger throws. I wondered if even though that(the bounce off the forearm) happens on some of my bigger throws it wasn't robbing me in some way of distance. I agree that you can't get much farther into the pocket than that though, lol.

 

[Stringbean]

For awhile, I misunderstood what was meant by getting the elbow out front. I thought that meant out front towards the target, not away from your body. When I get the disc to my right pec with my bicep directly in front of it, I can do just about everything else wrong and still throw 350 feet.

The disc never comes close to touching my forearm. I broke my right wrist when I was 15 and have never had the same flexibility. I can't even force it to bend far enough to touch my forearm.

 

[itlnstln]

For awhile, I misunderstood what was meant by getting the elbow out front. I thought that meant out front towards the target, not away from your body. When I get the disc to my right pec with my bicep directly in front of it, I can do just about everything else wrong and still throw 350 feet.

The disc never comes close to touching my forearm. I broke my right wrist when I was 15 and have never had the same flexibility. I can't even force it to bend far enough to touch my forearm.

Hmm... I get my elbow out towards the target. In any case, it's about creating leverage, and there are myriad ways to do that. Feldberg doesn't really get the elbow out towards the target as much as some others but he does just fine.

 

[aDave]

Update. JR suggested that I go out in the field and see what the new form does so I did.
Did some field work this afternoon. The best drive I measured was 420 foot with a 170 pearly champ orc on a hyzer flip. It flipped flat while rising, turned right and glided for a bit and faded gently. Best drive I've ever thrown. Comets were in the 350 range on high hyzer flips. Got 1 Yeti drive out to 320 and was bombing the ruby lol. The rest were in between.
Gstar teebird tosses were flat lazers, no turn and medium fade out to about 350.
I feel like I've got another 50 feet in there. But whenever I really go for it, I get OAT with a vengeance. I don't know why. Any ideas?

 

[DiscJay]

Update. JR suggested that I go out in the field and see what the new form does so I did.
Did some field work this afternoon. The best drive I measured was 420 foot with a 170 pearly champ orc on a hyzer flip. It flipped flat while rising, turned right and glided for a bit and faded gently. Best drive I've ever thrown. Comets were in the 350 range on high hyzer flips. Got 1 Yeti drive out to 320 and was bombing the ruby lol. The rest were in between.
Gstar teebird tosses were flat lazers, no turn and medium fade out to about 350.
I feel like I've got another 50 feet in there. But whenever I really go for it, I get OAT with a vengeance. I don't know why. Any ideas?

aDave,

I notice that when I really get on a drive that I will roll my wrist trying to put more on it. Maybe try not to work the wrist into the power drives so much and let the wrist opening happen more on its own. That's what works for me.

 

[JR]

Congratulations on the progress so far! That can raise you up a division in competition. Honestly on many courses those distances will not give an advantage to anyone but the longest bombers and then only if the risks are not too high for them.

The reasons to OAT are many and a video is the best way to determine what is what. EWrist rolls might be curable with adding a stiffer wrist. Try to get 10' extra at first not 50'. When pushing for improvements it is normal that you may get a couple of tosses ok in a thousand ripping beyond your controllable level vs half right at a few feet beyond your controllable level. Pushing it kills consistency.

 

[aDave]

I'll try to get some video this weekend. Thanks for the input.

 

[rhatton2]

Old thread bump - this has been discussed a lot over on DGCR recently.

I've stolen Blakes Rail line and added a disc with approximate hand and thumb positions through the rail, then put it alongside a picture HUB (heavydisblogspot Jason) made of Mike C's overhead.

Seeing a real disc with the wrist and thumb placement really helps me to visulaise the power of this motion with the incredible speed that must be generated in the "pivot" (for want of a better word) and what looks almost like an arc on top of an arc as the thumb pushes and the disc breaks from the hand.

I wish we had some higher frame rate top down camera work of people like Mike's, Dan's and Nate Doss, barry Schultz's form to see the motions clearly through the 7 - 9 area on the picture, maybe You guys JR might get on to that?

 

[JR]

Actually Bradley Walker here described that arc on top of an arc on top of another thingy years ago. One arc comes from the heel pivot, hips twist another, shoulders too, elbow, wrist and disc pivot. It is the timing and rail vs straight line pull that determines if there is an arc or not from the heel to the elbow straightening. It is possible to sync the body parts for a straight line pull so that only the latter part of the elbow extension moves the disc to the left of the line still ending up on a parallel line. Or the rail is possible too.

 

[JR]

I don't have high speed camera footage of rail throwers from above sorry. Only straighter pulling players. There are some shots from the side i'm sure because there are some rail throwers around here. Just can't recall who and where. Or there is a gaping hole in the video archive. Gotta rectify that next season.

Not our film or slow mo but here is one interpretation of a rail from a local player Miko fyhr, who has the highest arm speed in Finland according to Ville Piippo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FGjmAlS_bo&index=4&list=UUzaJd1HgasGStUo3MNSgzLw
Check out full and very long flight from him on the same channel in the Vilnius Open video. There are some non annies too done with his rail version.

There are some players who have versions of rail locally beside Miko are Jaani Länsiö, Jalle Stoor and Nils Iso-Markku. There are videos of those guys but the slow mo vid of Jaani on the channel frisbeejohnny is not his regular style i think it was just a test of a straighter pull than he normally uses. It was a 100 meter indoor hall so he does not need that power.

 

[rhatton2]

Definitely lots of side view shots out there, its the top down throw that really interests me, I want to see that last section of the drive through the "pivot" really clearly in a rail throw and a normal traditional straight drive and also a Swedish style from above. Hell, I would love to see that sort of clarity top down for sidearm too and also side on for overhand throws, something that shows enough frames to really pick up all the changes in trajectory of the disc as it goes through the final motions - I'm not quite talking slow motion bullet stuff here but close would be nice.

I'm searching for commonalities in actions, there's a lot of stuff I think I know, stuff that has been described here and I believe I've felt but I really want to prove it with high frame rate footage - do you have any other top down views? Even that top down of Avery you had from a few years back missed those final moments of the disc leaving the hand.

As for the picture - I know Bradley talked about arcs and coupling but that was more to do with different parts of the body linking together to drive the whip/launch the trebubuchet as it were, what really interested me was seeing a visual representation from tracing a disc on Blakes rail line as it started to come away from the hand and the thumb pushed and seeing the secondary arc at the top of the first which doesn't just bring the disc through 180 but even further than that, so much power in so tiny an action. Forget all the coupling of different body motions, just nailing that one tiny action correctly can revolutionise an approach game and then you can build from there.

I think what i am getting at is the thing that was so often said here on DGR, the working from the hit back. Most people don't understand this concept as they never "feel" the hit. They go about working from the hit back, never really realising what the hit is. The better ones use the Hammer drill and manage to half hit it, the majority just add more motion and never find that all important feeling. I think a visual representation of this helps to get people to feel the hit and to understand why strengthening that motion should be the end goal of all practice and all added motions.

Blake said he would never try to teach it to flat out newbs, It's the one point he makes that I would argue with, I think it's possible to teach this as in essence it's such a simple thing, it becomes harder when people have an engrained throw it hard mentality to overcome. Whilst he often said you can't see it you have to feel it, in this instance why not do both? Seeing it certainly helps me to visualise getting that outer edge of the disc around and out in as short a space of time as possible. It can be taught at stupidly slow speeds. I believe it helps if people (some, possibly not all) know what they are looking to achieve.

 

[JR]

It is important to motivate people so the theoretical concept of what you are trying to teach and what the benefits are are important to convey. Which is why a visual aid is good for those who are not local that can not be shown in person. It is easy to show in slow throws or striking a pose mid throw what a hit looks like. Pulling it off in a hard throw is another matter entirely. There the feel is supremely important. A newb can pull off a hit at slow speeds and see how a putter flies at a more constant height due to a later or non existing fade helping the disc maximizing glide. It is easy to understand the value of o good pivot keeping the disc in a tighter window for longer and added distance when going to the basket. A reference point helps vs standing in an open field even though the benefits of a full hit are the same. Perceptions matter and a disc seems larger at short ranges so it easier to notice changes in flight path.

I forgot to mention in the keys thread that you want to hold on to the disc longer thsn 4 o'clock. Not everyone can keep a wide winged disc at full power until 6 but some might pull off 5.45 and more 5.30. I am hopeless there. Having less finger leverage without a large paw and limited squeezing power of 48 kilos albeit at the command of a physiotherapist not utilizing the finger tips i have only managed a six o'clock rip with a Spike. That is a thin and short winged putter. And it was a very slowly started working almost only the hit throw. So too little base speed for ultimate distance throw. No joy not being able to train hard for muscle power ever per doctors orders. A Finnish player said he squeezes 78 kilos and iirc he is at 160 or 170 meters. My back prevents an effective hips twist and he is younger and quicker so the extra 30-40 meters he has on me does not come from a fuller hit alone. Or rather he has a better longer disc pivot potential thanks to his stronger larger hand.

Avery Jenkins said he does not try to actively move the wrist on drives earlier but does in some approaches. I do not know if he meant a magnified active wrist snap. A few years later in his clinic last year he showed abiut a 1.5 cm wrist movementto the right and iirc to wrist neutral or less than that 1.5 cm right of neutral. So i do not know if he has always actively wrist snapped a little in drives. He should have the grip power to hit fully or close to it. He sure throws far. Too bad the frame rate needed to capture a disc pivoting is way higher than the 400 per second in that top down Avery video. And it is not a rail. My camera does take iirc 420 fps at way refuced resolution but i do not think you can see much at that resolution and the frame rate is way too low. I think a good pivot captured needs over 400*300 resolution at over 900 fps. A camera that can pull that off is expensive and my camera falls woefully short of that.

On Youtube channel lcgm8 there are 300 fps oblique down videos of some players in the Scandinavian Open 2010 videos. No rails i think but i would need to verify that. Edit: Dang i could not find slo mos with a small sample so thinking back i am pretty sure that there were no slo mo oblique clips in there only regular speed HD clips :-( Meh.

Luma shot this piece at 150 fps at 1:10 Nate Doss has somewhat railish fairly wide off the body reach back reaching the torso in the center and looking at it closely you can see the disc pivot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZaWw3S5tkU&list=UUhNNn7-BCvjLehK8POsfBkw

At 0:12 is another top down throw from Luma that is in focus and shows the disc pivot in a straight pull:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FIQ4ggU5Bw&list=UUySX8nM4tELb04ybTAUFnnA

Another of his not so much in focus with the disc center line illustrated:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgSjZ195eH8&list=UUySX8nM4tELb04ybTAUFnnA
At 2:10 a rounding throw and at 2:15 a straight line pull.

 

[rhatton2]

That last ones great, thanks JR.

 

[JR]

Note that the graphic is a little off in the end and the disc veers to the right of the drawn line slightly. Luma did not sync every movement to be able to keep the disc on the line but in moving the disc to the right me may well have added power from the body rotation plus heel pivot. The disc moving right might not move the disc to the right that much. Dave Dunipace said that the disc goes where the thumb nail points when the disc leaves not in those words but meaning that. It is interesting to see the principle in that 150 fps video from luma. Obviously the camera does good job of reducing image quality reducing distorions and maintaining focus. You can see the disc pivoting nicely so that video does work as an illustration tool for the final arc that happens in the rail as well.