[Innova] The secret to choosing the right Destroyer

[elmexdela]

Why do people keep referring to "runs" of Destroyers that cover years worth of discs? Destroyers are one of, if not THE most sold discs. I don't know Innova's production schedule, but I guarantee they make new ones AT LEAST multiple times per year. I wouldn't be surprised if they mold up new ones every week, maybe even every day or two. Every time they make a new batch is a new "run", regardless of what's stamped on the front.

Also, in relation to that video, and his observation that the rim shape varies throughout the rim on each disc; I have been measuring the rim width in various discs over the last several months. In doing so, I have found that the rim width on Destroyers varies throughout the rim significantly more than on any other disc I've measured.

please provide more data

 

[jjmiller]

please provide more data

I already have. Multiple times, and in multiple threads. No one ever seems to care much. But what data do you want? Variation among Destroyers in multiple discs? Variation throughout the same disc? Comparisons with other popular Innova discs? Comparisons vs other company's discs?



(I bet your response just says "yes")

 

[moorent]

Why do people keep referring to "runs" of Destroyers that cover years worth of discs?

Because, aside from changes in tooling (vulcan tops, embossed vs ink...), there isn't really any other way to guesstimate when they were produced.

It's inaccurate, but it's all we really have.

 

[elmexdela]

I already have. Multiple times, and in multiple threads. No one ever seems to care much. But what data do you want? Variation among Destroyers in multiple discs? Variation throughout the same disc? Comparisons with other popular Innova discs? Comparisons vs other company's discs?



(I bet your response just says "yes")

no need for the attitude if youre choosing to respond like that you can keep your precious data to yourself

thanks anyways i wish the rest of your day is as pleasant as you are

 

[jjmiller]

no need for the attitude if youre choosing to respond like that you can keep your precious data to yourself

thanks anyways i wish the rest of your day is as pleasant as you are

Sorry for the attitude. What exactly are you curious about?

I'd have to check again to be exact, and I have three fewer newish Destroyers to measure these days(and a couple beat to hell ones with gashes and nicks that I wouldn't trust measurements to be reliable from), but they measured anywhere from ~.900" to ~.915" or maybe even ~.920" between different discs and even different parts of the rim on the same disc. A Force or Defender, the two other Destroyer "clones" I've measured multiples of, always measure pretty much right at .900". I think I've got a couple Forces that were a bit under, like .890", but all of the Forces and Defenders I've checked were pretty consistent throughout their rims. Ten thousandths is about the most variance I've seen throughout the rim on any disc that wasn't a Destroyer.

Keep in mind that this is just me using some calipers by hand and fairly small sample sizes. But enough that it looks like a trend to me.

 

[swhite]

Sorry for the attitude. What exactly are you curious about?

Ten thousandths is about the most variance I've seen throughout the rim on any disc that wasn't a Destroyer.

Then, you have never measured an Aerobie Epic.

 

[Marmoset]

I came on here to say much of what BuzzzChief said. In addition to specific material blends, most of the process variables can affect shrinkage rates. Adding to BuzzzChief's list, mold temperature, pack pressure, pack dwell time, etc. There are sooooo many variables.

Shrink will be affected by a lot of different factors. Plastic blend, cooling time, ambient temperature, and orientation during cooling will all affect the shrink after the part comes out of the mold. The molding equipment parameters will make a big difference. How hot the plastic is, how hot the mold is, what injection speeds and pressures are being used, how long the part is allowed to cool within the mold before being ejected, etc. There are dozens of factors.

My (somewhat educated) guess is that the wing profile is related to how long the disc cools in the mold. I've seen issues in the past where thick parts were not allowed to cool in the mold for long enough and something similar happened.

When the part is ejected from the mold quickly after injection, the outside has solidified. But the inside can still be semi-liquid and under pressure from the molding process. This can make the part swell or even burst. I assume this is what's happening in the wing because it's so thick in relation to the rest of the disc. It's puffing out slightly and losing the normal concave wing shape.

Just like how some wizards are more or less puffy, or have higher/lower shoulders. It's not like they are changing the mold with each run. It's all molding and cooling process variation.

 

[elmexdela]

Sorry for the attitude. What exactly are you curious about?

I'd have to check again to be exact, and I have three fewer newish Destroyers to measure these days(and a couple beat to hell ones with gashes and nicks that I wouldn't trust measurements to be reliable from), but they measured anywhere from ~.900" to ~.915" or maybe even ~.920" between different discs and even different parts of the rim on the same disc. A Force or Defender, the two other Destroyer "clones" I've measured multiples of, always measure pretty much right at .900". I think I've got a couple Forces that were a bit under, like .890", but all of the Forces and Defenders I've checked were pretty consistent throughout their rims. Ten thousandths is about the most variance I've seen throughout the rim on any disc that wasn't a Destroyer.

Keep in mind that this is just me using some calipers by hand and fairly small sample sizes. But enough that it looks like a trend to me.

if i remember i think i read a thread on this a year or three back...still some questions that came to mind

did it matter star vs champ vs pro vs dx

did temperature like winter vs summer make a significant difference

did heavy use significantly change a measurement

did putters or mids have as much variance

what would be the second most variance in a disc

would you say the variance matters more than plh


side note i did have a z flx buzz that the top piece didnt match the bottom i woulda loved to see the difference on each side of that disc

 

[jjmiller]

if i remember i think i read a thread on this a year or three back...still some questions that came to mind

did it matter star vs champ vs pro vs dx

did temperature like winter vs summer make a significant difference

did heavy use significantly change a measurement

did putters or mids have as much variance

what would be the second most variance in a disc

would you say the variance matters more than plh


side note i did have a z flx buzz that the top piece didnt match the bottom i woulda loved to see the difference on each side of that disc

I've only ever measured Destroyers in Star plastic. But I do have two Predators in Sparkle Crystal FLX(Ledgestone run) that have a slightly wider rim than several Vultures I've checked- both in Z and Big Z. These Preds are also way more overstable than a Big Z Pred I threw awhile back(but never measured). So I ordered a regular Z Pred just the other day because it was on sale and I was curious. Rim measures the same as the Vultures(smaller than the Ledgestone run Preds), and it also has a significantly lower PLH than the Ledgestone Preds. So maybe plastic might have something to do with it? But in regards to what I said about Destroyers, none of these discs have a whole lot of variation in their individual rim widths.

Heavy use can definitely make a big difference in rim width variance. Especially in baseline plastic putters. That's why I mentioned only currently having a few new/newish Destroyers to measure.

I've only ever measured any discs in the house- temperature could potentially matter???

No idea what the second most variance would be. All other discs besides Star Destroyers that I've checked have been pretty symmetrical.

Maybe I should get a notepad, go check a bunch of discs, and actually have the numbers written down to look at...

 

[Marmoset]

I've only ever measured any discs in the house- temperature could potentially matter???

Normal ranges of temperature should only make a difference on a microscopic level.

 

[elmexdela]

I've only ever measured Destroyers in Star plastic. But I do have two Predators in Sparkle Crystal FLX(Ledgestone run) that have a slightly wider rim than several Vultures I've checked- both in Z and Big Z. These Preds are also way more overstable than a Big Z Pred I threw awhile back(but never measured). So I ordered a regular Z Pred just the other day because it was on sale and I was curious. Rim measures the same as the Vultures(smaller than the Ledgestone run Preds), and it also has a significantly lower PLH than the Ledgestone Preds. So maybe plastic might have something to do with it? But in regards to what I said about Destroyers, none of these discs have a whole lot of variation in their individual rim widths.

Heavy use can definitely make a big difference in rim width variance. Especially in baseline plastic putters. That's why I mentioned only currently having a few new/newish Destroyers to measure.

I've only ever measured any discs in the house- temperature could potentially matter???

No idea what the second most variance would be. All other discs besides Star Destroyers that I've checked have been pretty symmetrical.

Maybe I should get a notepad, go check a bunch of discs, and actually have the numbers written down to look at...

i wonder about the temp cuz of playing in MN winters and then 85 degree ish summers i would think the plastic would change somewhat

i think its a blessing in disguises i dont have a caliper because i would be measuring every disc in different circumstances

im interested in plh vs variance in rim widths but they probably is a giant topic and would take a ton of time

 

[McCready]

So is there a run/plastic that is reliably less stable than the norm? I've never thrown a "flippy" destroyer and I'm curious. I currently bag a 170 Pro (which looks and feels much more like Star IMO) which is my beefiest distance driver.

 

[Twmccoy]

So is there a run/plastic that is reliably less stable than the norm? I've never thrown a "flippy" destroyer and I'm curious. I currently bag a 170 Pro (which looks and feels much more like Star IMO) which is my beefiest distance driver.

Pro, DX, and G* Destroyers are definitely flippier than champion or star. DX can be wildly flippy, especially if you beat the disc up some.

DX is the only plastic I'd say Destroyers really get flippy in. The G* and pro ones will definitely turn on you though. Pro seems to beat quickly, and you'll notice the disc turning far more than when it was new.

 

[Manu Al]

I have a few red echo star Destroyers that are pretty flippy when fresh and season quite quickly into extreme hyzer flip / roller discs. I've had those both relatively flat and pretty domey, but each one has a very low PLH. The ones I have look like the one found here https://www.discstore.com/innova-echo-star-destroyer

I've had older run echos as well and they've been way more overstable.

 

[thechamp]

I notice some of the ricky wysocki destroyers have a straight wing with no concave whatsoever. They look less stable.
How do they fly?

 

[jjmiller]

I notice some of the ricky wysocki destroyers have a straight wing with no concave whatsoever. They look less stable.
How do they fly?

Haven't thrown one myself, but reports from others that have posted about them so far would back up your suspicions about their stability.

 

[BuzzzChief]

I notice some of the ricky wysocki destroyers have a straight wing with no concave whatsoever. They look less stable.
How do they fly?

It would be pretty awesome if someone compared a bunch of different destroyers to see the differences in wing shape. They could make a video and compare the straight ones to the curved ones, and let us know if there's a difference. Maybe some day.

 

[McCready]

Pro, DX, and G* Destroyers are definitely flippier than champion or star. DX can be wildly flippy, especially if you beat the disc up some.

DX is the only plastic I'd say Destroyers really get flippy in. The G* and pro ones will definitely turn on you though. Pro seems to beat quickly, and you'll notice the disc turning far more than when it was new.

Yeah, I threw a couple DX and I found them to be complete garbage, really touchy and unpredictable. My Pro is still very overstable after 2 years in the bag, but like I said this run is more like Star. Identical to Star actually, which seems like typical Innova sloppiness. Maybe I'll give GStar a shot. Just remembered I have one in my stash somewhere. :thmbup:

 

[Twmccoy]

Yeah, I threw a couple DX and I found them to be complete garbage, really touchy and unpredictable. My Pro is still very overstable after 2 years in the bag, but like I said this run is more like Star. Identical to Star actually, which seems like typical Innova sloppiness. Maybe I'll give GStar a shot. Just remembered I have one in my stash somewhere. :thmbup:

I think any high speed driver in DX is junk. I remember when I was a new player I'd throw DX Orcs and Wraiths and they'd start flipping over bad for no apparent reason. I have thrown DX Destroyers, but not for at least 10 years.

If I'm looking for a good Destroyer I want it to be star and have some dome to it. I'm not a fan of flat Destroyers. They tend to be really beefy and glideless.

 

[doth_savek]

It would be pretty awesome if someone compared a bunch of different destroyers to see the differences in wing shape. They could make a video and compare the straight ones to the curved ones, and let us know if there's a difference. Maybe some day.

I'm so glad you said this so I didn't have to.... Hahaha :clap::wall: