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ThighMaster move from DG Spin Doctor

Some people have anauralia. They have no inner voice.*

Those people are all around you being successful in all kinds of ways. How?
I saw a reference to this literature awhile back, and surprisingly, it was something like 30% of people have anauralia. Lots of lightbulbs went off in my head, especially as someone who has a strong, if not yelling and hostile, inner voice

It's something to remember when working with others. Things that seems automatically understood and obvious to me may not be so to others. And that's fine.

It's also why it's good having multiple content creators providing different perspectives on the same concept. In college, I had a calculus professor that used nothing but variables (no numbers at all) and theory in their lessons, and it all went over my head. I dropped the class and took it with another professor over the summer. This professor taught with more practical applications, and I aced the class. Same stuff, just different approach

(ETA: Also, f*ck trig)
 
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I saw a reference to this literature awhile back, and surprisingly, it was something like 30% of people have anauralia. Lots of lightbulbs went off in my head, especially as someone who has a strong, if not yelling and hostile, inner voice

It's something to remember when working with others. Things that seems automatically understood and obvious to me may not be so to others. And that's fine.

It's also why it's good having multiple content creators providing different perspectives on the same concept. In college, I had a calculus professor that used nothing but variables (no numbers at all) and theory in their lessons, and it all went over my head. I dropped the class and took it with another professor over the summer. This professor taught with more practical applications, and I aced the class. Same stuff, just different approach

(ETA: Also, f*ck trig)

I find you very relatable.

Disc golf is the way I let this guy inside my head out:
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Because in most of the rest of my life I have to be a little more like this (if only I were so beautiful):
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I teach PhD multilevel modeling right now. One student is a mathematician. Another is a programmer. Most of them are clinical psychology trainees with various abilities. When you are surrounded by multiple types of smart people that want to learn something, it gets interesting. Whatever I tried to improve since the last time I gave the class isn't always the best for how each new person will learn. They get each concept in multiple forms of communicating as I get more fluent, but I still can't predict what questions I will get.

If you imagine me running around alternating between my prepared contents, algebra on the white board, sketching out crude graph case scenarios, talking about simultaneous vs. sequential solvers, make weird motions with my body, and bumping into my own limitations at every turn before we make it out of the class alive hoping everyone learned more than nothing, you are correct.

My father is a pretty snarky engineer. On my home desk sits a little thing he gave me that says "I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you." That's why I sympathize with anyone who cares about instruction. Sometimes I look at it and think it perfectly encapsulates what Sidewinder must be thinking most of the time on the Form Critiques threads.
 
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I may not have perfect English, but I am confident that I understand the language sufficiently and do not feel the need to hide behind any shortcomings.

It appears that we have differing teaching philosophies. In my opinion, if something does not need to be addressed, such as the off arm in a throw, I prefer not to draw attention to it or teach specific movements to keep it still. Instead, I would teach the student to simply let the arm move naturally, which would result in it remaining still until it needs to move. Why waste time and energy focusing on something that doesn't require conscious effort?

For example, if the thrower can keep their off arm relaxed and out of the way, it will naturally move in the correct manner without needing to be consciously controlled. Is it worth using valuable time and effort to teach something that doesn't require it, or is it better to address the issue only if the student is actively causing problems by moving the arm incorrectly?

In my opinion, emphasizing all the ways to "not move" the off arm can serve as a distraction from simply allowing it to move naturally.
This is the type of discussion I originally made the post hoping for. Even tho it's not on the thighmaster topic I'm glad to see it and I'm sure many others are. It's very interesting.

Hope you guys continue it and I think it's a good reminder to sometimes assume no ill will and just ask and respond to questions anew and see what happens. Of course if things repeatedly take a bad turn it makes sense to cut it off.
 
I find it very interesting too, not least because i don't see visual imagery myself! I only realised very recently (a matter of weeks) that when people picture things in their head they actually have an image. Blows my mind.
I didn't realize how much I visualized for recollection. After taking psychedelics though I noticed the subconscious visualizations that were already present more easily.

I used to think the way it worked was more like, I ask myself "did I lock the door on my way out of the house?" And then it's just a plain fact answer that I remember.

In reality, I actually visualize myself putting the key in the lock and turning it, and if the visualization feels fresh and recent it's because it happened recently enough for the visuals to be filled in more effortlessly and I'm then confident I locked the door, otherwise I realize I didn't.

Super fascinating stuff.
 
I find it very interesting too, not least because i don't see visual imagery myself! I only realised very recently (a matter of weeks) that when people picture things in their head they actually have an image. Blows my mind.
I didn't realize how much I visualized for recollection. After taking psychedelics though I noticed the subconscious visualizations that were already present more easily.

I used to think the way it worked was more like, I ask myself "did I lock the door on my way out of the house?" And then it's just a plain fact answer that I remember.

In reality, I actually visualize myself putting the key in the lock and turning it, and if the visualization feels fresh and recent it's because it happened recently enough for the visuals to be filled in more effortlessly and I'm then confident I locked the door, otherwise I realize I didn't.

Super fascinating stuff.
Not one but two of my undergrads came up to me about this because they suddenly realized they had aphantasia. They both said "wait, like, you literally see things in your head?"

One of them started to play little games to see if she could do it and I found it interesting that she could train herself to faintly see basic shape outlines if she concentrated hard. The effect improved when she also made herself feel emotions while doing it.
 
Not one but two of my undergrads came up to me about this because they suddenly realized they had aphantasia. They both said "wait, like, you literally see things in your head?"

One of them started to play little games to see if she could do it and I found it interesting that she could train herself to faintly see basic shape outlines if she concentrated hard. The effect improved when she also made herself feel emotions while doing it.
Yeah I think many people who think they don't have visualizations just have weak ones that are low definition and lack color and are so subconscious it's not noticeable without training.

I think I remember seeing a study that tested different forms of meditation prior to test taking and found that a visualization based meditation improved test preference more than others.

Also the g-tummo meditation practice used to increase body temp apparently uses some visualizations of fire or something hot inside you. I tried it for fun and it's really hard. It's easy for me to visualize putting my key in the door locking it because it's something I regularly do, but just visualizing a flame on a candle on command is tough because I don't regularly sit and look at one, lol. IIRC one of the specific visualizations taught is to imagine your body as like an empty balloon with a fire in the middle that increases in intensity over time.

Man disc golf is so interesting, it takes you to wild topics of conversation!
 
Not one but two of my undergrads came up to me about this because they suddenly realized they had aphantasia. They both said "wait, like, you literally see things in your head?"

One of them started to play little games to see if she could do it and I found it interesting that she could train herself to faintly see basic shape outlines if she concentrated hard. The effect improved when she also made herself feel emotions while doing it.

I think my pre frontal cortex gets in the way. I dream visually, and when I'm half dozing and just waking up I've discovered recently that i can get some vague imagery - to the point where it would make sense to say 'is the elephant you're imagining facing to the left or the right?'

But normally, i simply know that there's no elephant, and whilst i can bring to mind the concept of an elephant, that concept is not visual. It's the platonic elephant lol. When i draw, i have to work very hard to draw circles as ovals, for example. I know it's a circle, even if I'm looking at it side on. I can't 'see' an image of what it looked like in two dimensions and draw it accurately. It's a circle. 🤷‍♂️
 
The concept of not having an inner voice or visuals is mind blowingly absurd to me. I have no idea what thinking would even mean without them!

I have a wildly, wildly visual mind. Every single night is a series of intense vivid dreams, without fail lol.
 
The concept of not having an inner voice or visuals is mind blowingly absurd to me. I have no idea what thinking would even mean without them!

I have a wildly, wildly visual mind. Every single night is a series of intense vivid dreams, without fail lol.
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Yes, this place is at its best when people make weird, unexpected segues lol.
I tried to stop but ya know my virtual persona too well by now
 
Not to sound condescending or to be pedantic, but I think coming together to make a list on what you all agree on in the disc golf throw would help move the conversation forward. There may be differences in methodology, but there has to be agreement somewhere. For example, every disc golf teacher that that is worth anything knows that bracing is fundamental to the throw. How to teach it may result in a point of disagreement, but highlighting a point of agreement like that will help others involved in the conversation and discovery as well as avoiding common pitfalls.

With that said, what areas of the disc golf throw do you all agree on?
 
I'd support that of course. Ideally would include contributions from data collected from top throwers (Kwon, Merela, etc.).
 
Some people have aphantasia. They don't "see" anything in their heads.

Some people have anauralia. They have no inner voice.*

*This is one of my favorite emerging literatures anywhere in science. As someone who is highly visually and auditory "in my head," I found it shocking to learn about a few years ago.

I had no idea that was possible. I'm somewhat embarassed it never occurred to me. I have read Temple Grande's "Thinking in Pictures," it should make sense the opposite was possible.

This afternoon I was trying to design a lightweight replacement for a heavy table music stand, using some triangular truss shapes. (I coach a handbell choir.) I can see the 3D shape in my head but I'm having a heck of a time drawing it.
 
I had no idea that was possible. I'm somewhat embarassed it never occurred to me. I have read Temple Grande's "Thinking in Pictures," it should make sense the opposite was possible.

This afternoon I was trying to design a lightweight replacement for a heavy table music stand, using some triangular truss shapes. (I coach a handbell choir.) I can see the 3D shape in my head but I'm having a heck of a time drawing it.
I've heard they're average sex differences in some things like mentally rotating complex 3D shapes, where at the tails, men excel more but women excel more in other areas.
 
I think my pre frontal cortex gets in the way. I dream visually, and when I'm half dozing and just waking up I've discovered recently that i can get some vague imagery - to the point where it would make sense to say 'is the elephant you're imagining facing to the left or the right?'

But normally, i simply know that there's no elephant, and whilst i can bring to mind the concept of an elephant, that concept is not visual. It's the platonic elephant lol. When i draw, i have to work very hard to draw circles as ovals, for example. I know it's a circle, even if I'm looking at it side on. I can't 'see' an image of what it looked like in two dimensions and draw it accurately. It's a circle. 🤷‍♂️
what about if you try to imagine two very different things, is there some visual distinction that approximates the differences?

Like imagining a big rectangular skyscraper with rows of windows vs an elephant.

It's weird, because for me it feels both visual and not visual at the same time, like if I imagine a swimming pool I've been to it seems like the there are glimpses of the details visually but if I try to focus I don't clearly see light blue water, but I can three dimensionally map out lots of details if I keep thinking about it.

Or a different example, what about if you were going to give someone instructions on how to find something in a very familiar place to you? How would you describe the sensation of thinking of those details to relay them? Does it feel like you 3D navigate through the house to recall it and turn it into instructions?

For me it's not crystal clear images but I get the sensation of navigating through the house in my head with glimpses of the detailed features and the scale of things in relation to my size.
 
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This is me thinking, or maybe speculating, but there should be an effect on the learning process.

As I "picture" it (sorry) one piece is a feedback loop: setpoint, measurement, determine error, compute correction. For a thermostat, setpoint is desired temperature, measure actual temperature, check how far off, do something to furnace or AC.

For a musician: have an ideal concept of tone in your head, listen to what you sound like, analyze the difference, try something different to get closer. No concept of tone? listen to favorite artists until you have one. Can't hear yourself? BIG problem. Hear your inner voice louder than your actual? Bigger problem. Become a painter, or spend a LOT of time with a recorder. I suspect prodigies can hear their true selves earlier and better than the rest of us; to some extent it's a learned skill.

For a disc thrower, I would think a visual image of what the flight should look like. Maybe proprioception is another way.
 
YW, and I hope people read what you wrote.

Fundamentally all I try to do is lead with curiosity and a learner's mindset. I just assume I am the dumbest person in every room. I have the benefit of being fairly new to DG and kind of quietly lurking at all times.

In my main job if a have a student who isn't getting something or disagrees with me, the first thing I do is ask them why. I do my best to explain what I thought to figure out where the disagreement is. If I feel myself getting defensive in any way, I just ask more questions until I understand where they are coming from.

I do the same with my colleagues, etc. It doesn't always work but it usually does and I end up less upset more days than not.

Thank you for your tone here, if you don't mind I'll draw out a couple of mechanics things while we are here.

That's awesome. I think we would all get on much better if more people adopted your outlook. I appreciate that a ton and strive to emulate it as much as possible. Have you studied Buddhist / mindfulness philosophy or did you get to where you are on your own? Admirable either way!


1.
-Internal Torque across the body - yes. I think a lot of less athletic people have trouble distinguishing "good" torques (athleticism) from "bad" torques (twisting, shearing forces on muscles, bones, and joints).

-I can always get quibbly with individual words, but I take your point about the move off the rear side into the weight shift & suddenness. I had talked to Josh about his bracing concepts before, and we discussed what I think we were both ok calling "athletic resistance" moving back and forth. That's also what "riding the bull" ideally is whether people interpret it that way or not. I have been through phases of both dumpy and sudden "quick" shifts and the compressive load and "good" torque into the rear leg in the backswing ideally involves resistance/releasing of load in the hip adductors. I would need someone smarter than me to show a kinetic phase diagram or something, but that is how I tended to simplify it. I also think like most things in weight shifting, you need to do it in good balance like walking or running and it is very sensitive to getting spoiled if the person isn't used to doing it already. That's basically what I thought Jaani Thighmaster and Seabas had in common in Post 2 in this thread. I think they emphasize it somewhat differently but I am still not clear on whether it is a "distinction without a difference" in the end, mechanically, because it turned into some kind of fight rather than a discussion, unfortunately. I also don't think that is trivial that the instructors themselves have very different bodies - seabas uses more verticality and the adduction and counterbalance look different if you don't have elite hip mobility. Jaani looks incredibly nimble and flexible any time I see him move and well-conditioned for throwing in general. I think (know) seabas initially came from a form development framework that encoded balance differently than Jaani. Maybe they're converging in the same direction over time, I'll leave it there for now.

-Last, I would be wary of overemphasizing anything, but especially small interior muscles like adductors. They clearly play a role. But I'm often worried that some people are going to start "actively" trying to "squeeze the knees" at all costs, which reminds me of asymmetries in valgus knees. Intuitively, just look at the size of the muscle groups. Adductors are not tiny, but quads and glutes are generally the "workhorse" muscles, maybe calves next, followed by things like adductors, abductors, and hammies. Walking or other athletic moves I've tried to understand seem to work through phases that load and unload all of these things, usually putting the strongest muscles in the right places for the strongest/lowest effort/safest sequences. Anecdotally at my peak weight training when I was leg pressing hundreds of pounds, the adductors were I think doing around 200. That maybe kind of checks out more generally. Just food for thought.

I think I'm following you on the "athletic resistance" point. Is the demo Josh does in his recent bracing video with his hands in his pockets hopping back and forth between feet while not moving his CG much what you're getting at? That is good athletic resistance, yes?

I agree on not overemphasizing anything, and I know its very easy for students to get hyperfocused on something small and miss the bigger picture. I think the adductor move falls into a 'maybe do it actively a bit to play with the idea' and then it will quickly become subconscious and that muscle activation will be more supporting good movement that causing it. I think that move falls into a 5% icing category rather than a 95% of the cake one... but at the same time I feel it is an understanding of those little cracks and corners of the movement that help me better understand and be able to teach the movement as a whole.

2.
-Yeah, I think I get the drift here (did you catch my weight shift joke?). The thing I am very sensitive to because I am basically becoming a balance theorist at bottom is that some people are using the hip adduction as a compensation for being off balance and "catching" balance (not good), whereas others are using it as a means for being on balance and fully integrated like other locomotion. I intuitively got the point of this in dance but it took Sidewinder to give me any chance to understand the connection in disc golf. I have the hypothesis that if you took 10 different instructors and asked them to draw a balance line from head to toe throughout different phases of the move, they would not agree. That's a problem IMHO because it means people have different fundamental theories to one extent or another.

-Rear leg/front leg stuff: I suppose in general I mentally simplified hip adduction as equal + opposite and reciprocal from rear leg to front leg, just like walking. Though now I do imagine/wonder that given that we are moving more sideways the phases and loads probably look different in a backhand, especially when the plant leg is taking the brunt of a stop/redirect/etc. role in the force transmission. Another thing I wouldn't be shocked to learn differs somewhat across players and forms, just a guess.

-Brace firmness - I mean, this has to at least be a transient thing, right? Just maybe the degree of muscle loading differs in the Backhand direction relative to pitching. I too also had a too-soft plant leg process/collapsing at the hip and knee at one point, and the same issue on the rear side. It's been a combination of drills (for me probably thousands of Hershyzers), throwing, exercises, etc. to just get my legs in a position to start to do some of this stuff myself. I really think we just need to be talking more about body conditioning and health in general since a significant proportion of players are probably underconditioned for one reason or another (IMHO).

Hmm.. yea. "catching" is not good. "not dropping in the first place" is better. I like the idea of staying in balance, I think I need a level up on what exactly that looks like as the x step loads. That is kinda a weak spot in my understanding.

Yes! re:10 lines from 10 instructors. Me and Seabas have different ideas about where the axis is... including or excluding the front leg. As such it is difficult to understand each others thinking. I would love to clear that up, first step seems to be actually understanding what he thinks...

I think you are right that the hip adductors work together or not at all. My timing cue of rear leg and then front leg is probly more of a feel thing that a real physics thing. But I think that contraction of the adductors helps the weightshift more constructively bridge the gap from rear foot to front foot. I think we all agree on that point.

Brace firmness re:transient. Absolutely. It feels / looks to me as if you want everything to firm up (body tension) just before the hit. But In reality it seems to me that pro players have the rear leg kick just after release if I'm remembering right.

Thanks for the back and forth. Wish I had more time available to keep up!
 
It appears that we have differing teaching philosophies. In my opinion, if something does not need to be addressed, such as the off arm in a throw, I prefer not to draw attention to it or teach specific movements to keep it still. Instead, I would teach the student to simply let the arm move naturally, which would result in it remaining still until it needs to move. Why waste time and energy focusing on something that doesn't require conscious effort?

For example, if the thrower can keep their off arm relaxed and out of the way, it will naturally move in the correct manner without needing to be consciously controlled. Is it worth using valuable time and effort to teach something that doesn't require it, or is it better to address the issue only if the student is actively causing problems by moving the arm incorrectly?

In my opinion, emphasizing all the ways to "not move" the off arm can serve as a distraction from simply allowing it to move naturally.
I think there is a difference in coaching a specific student/fixing issues, vs general skill building instruction for the masses. Coaching one student might require specific advice or cue that would be terrible for another student, and the same advice or cue for two students with the same issue might yield two completely different results due to the differences in how people learn and/or physical differences between students. I'm not sure there is a OSFA One-Size-Fits-All method that will work for everyone. Lots of other sports have spent a lot more time and money and technology and there is still a lot of debate between those coaches' methods and styles.

I don't know about you, but I found absolutely nothing about the disc golf backhand to be natural or instinctual. If it was natural then I wouldn't bother to have learned as much as I can about it. The only reason I found forehand "naturally" is due to prior acquired motor skill throwing baseballs/footballs/skipping rocks etc. Even the "simple" act of walking is not purely innate or natural or instinctual, like breathing or swallowing. In fact walking is quite complex and complicated to explain how 200 muscles are being used. Some people forget how to walk, some walk inefficiently and could improve. That is not to say that all people will walk identically, because everyone is physically built differently, so their most efficient way to walk will be unique, but the same fundamentals can be applied.

When throwing, if you were to just keep your rear arm relaxed it will fly out and drag behind you when you transition into forward rotation due to inertia. It requires conscious effort to tuck the rear arm into the body while rotating. Imagine telling a figure skater to just let the arm/s relax and do what it does naturally vs telling them to tuck their arm/s into the body, or raise them overhead to spin even faster.

After the skill has been learned into memory, only then can they begin to focus on their performance and not focus on mechanics.

When I came back to throwing after a lower spine injury, I kept hurting it again because my rear arm was too passive and naturally dragging the shoulders behind the hips increasing lower spine torsion/separation. This was the time I started to experiment with the Marc Jarvis style rear hand on thigh which reduced the rotational separation/torsion on the lower spine and my spine finally stopped hurting and I was also throwing further with less effort all the sudden.

"To be more efficient runners, we need arm drive to be turned on and this is accomplished by a balance between the muscles in the front and the back of the shoulder joint. As mentioned earlier, the shoulder joint is the most mobile of all joints so there are several muscles that contribute to movement about the joint but the prime movers for flexion (arm driving forward) are the pectoral muscles and the prime movers for extension (arm driving backward) are the latissimus dorsi and posterior deltoid muscles. Get these puppies in balance folks! In addition to decreasing the forward momentum of the body if the arms aren't driving efficiently, it will also allow for more twisting through the torso and pelvis.

In a 2008 study by Pontzer and colleagues, control of arm swing during running was investigated in a passive arm swing model vs an active arm swing model. In the passive arm swing model, subjects were asked to fold their arms across their chest, which in turn also decreased the moment of inertia. It was noted in the passive arm swing model that there was a lot of upper body movement, but it was not from flexion and extension at the shoulder joint as observed in the active arm swing, but from rotation coming from the torso. In an active arm swing model, shoulder musculature drives arm swing, but equally important, the arms act as mass dampers, decreasing rotational movements of the torso. Low back pain anyone?

Not only can the extra rotation of the torso cause low back pain when arms are not flexing and extending during running, observational research has measured larger joint angles at the hip, knee, and ankle when arm swing during running is not efficient (Miller et al., 2009). Not only is this not energy efficient, it puts the distance runner at greater risk of strain injuries."
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Me and Seabas have different ideas about where the axis is... including or excluding the front leg. As such it is difficult to understand each others thinking. I would love to clear that up, first step seems to be actually understanding what he thinks...
I think the yellow line is the imaginary mathematical Axis of Rotation. The spine is not the axis, it precesses around the axis on a tilted spiral. The front leg itself is not really the axis either although it's close, the ankle is the base of the axis as everything pivots centered around it.

If the rear leg was the axis of rotation, then it would be moving/wandering around during the throw which would kill rotational velocity.

Dr. Yeager vid is time stamped to axis of rotation. He says the axis of rotation is about the front leg.
one leg drill axis rotation copy 2.png

But In reality it seems to me that pro players have the rear leg kick just after release if I'm remembering right.

Thanks for the back and forth. Wish I had more time available to keep up!
The rear leg kick impulse force really happens before it leaves the ground. Forces happen before motion.

The toe tap after disc release is recoil that happens from blowback from the brace/hit.

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