Trying to get my backhand form to 400ft and beyond

[Dundee]

1. Slow down. I can't believe you aren't throwing the hammer through the wall. Looks like there is a lot of effort going on in your swing. It should be fairly effortless, even on slow effortless swings I've had the hammer fly out my hand accidentally as the whip pulls it.

2. Backswing with a hammer. Swing the hammer forward before starting backswing and pendulum the hammer back vertically. I do not recommend starting from power pocket and unhinging into horizontal backswing - this is very unnatural motion to a heavy swing - also...

3. Lag the hammer head straight back behind handle/wrist. You are curling the hammer head around the handle and trying to spin it way too much, instead of leveraging it like hammer or stick and letting it spin centrifugally.

4. Rear arm. Hold a beverage and don't spill it.

I've been practicing trying to lag the hammer head straight behind the wrist, and can't seem to figure it out. Also slowed down the swing. I thought going out to a field and being able to actually let go off the hammer would help, but I was still curling the hammer. Link to hammer throw in the field: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qjx2RRh2zs

I managed to throw one Buzzz out to 300ft from a standstill right after this video. Unable to recreate that again. All my midranges were going out to 260-270ft from a standstill.

Also been trying the hammer swing indoors while holding a glass of water. Still not keeping the hammer head straight behind the wrist. Somehow I've spilled only one drop of water, but watching the video back looks like I should have spilled more. Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THIrTEK1iSQ

Regarding slowing down, I have yet to feel like the hammer would just fly out of my hand. That must be a symptom of what I'm doing wrong.

Should I be thinking about keeping my arm straight to keep the hammer head in line with my wrist? That makes my arm feel tense, and I know I should feel pretty loose during all this.

 

[Dundee]

Responding to these two points:

1. Agree. I'm a prime example of someone who, by non-pro standards, throws "far", and I have a good bit left to improve in my form.

2. I don't always agree with only throwing slower discs. There is a big difference in throwing feel and flight characteristics between a mid-range and a fairway driver due to the rim differences (going from 5 to 7 speed is a large change in feel and flight), as well as a necessary difference in throwing height.

My opinion: If you want distance, you need to learn to control nose and release angles of drivers, and throwing only mid-ranges doesn't help with that. I think you should be throwing discs that, when released with a bit of hyzer, flip up and drift right a bit before coming back. At your arm speed (350'-ish), I'd recommend an understable fairway driver, e.g. Eagle, Leopard3, or anything else you fancy in the 7/X/-2/X range.

3. My own point: Distance will come fast or slow, depending on how you practice, your natural athletic ability, and how much time you dedicate to it. I got to 350' within 6 months of throwing backhand. However, I only gained 50' over the course of the next 3 years or so after that due to not really focusing on distance. Howevr, in the last 8 months (with 2 months off for injury), I have worked on NOTHING ELSE other than form/distance. Correspondingly, I have gained about 75' in that time-frame.

If you want to throw far, be prepared to work for it. I'm not usually one for hard rules, but I'd say a minimum 2 days (maximum of 3, no more) of field work per week, with a minimum of 30 drives per session will be required if you want to make steady progress in distance.

Distance increases seem to come in spurts, often in 20-25' increments. Don't get discouraged if you go for a month with seemingly nothing changing. Keep practicing and putting in the work, and you'll improve.

Oh, and make sure you warm up sufficiently. Injury is the last thing you want when trying to improve.

I started playing last September. By December, I was throwing 300ft. Around March I could throw 350ft. Since then I have stagnated. Probably thrown 15-20 400ft throws with my longest being 425ft, but accuracy and consistency where not there at all. That was when I was practicing 5 times a week for at least 1.5hr per session. Probably at least 60 throws during each session. However, I've moved practice down to 3 times a week and try to limit each session to about an hour. Anything longer and I start to lose focus and just start chunking discs without thinking about the things I'm trying to work on. I have plenty of time to put the work in, probably too much time.

I throw Teebird, TL, Buzzz, Pure/Warden, and a Valkyrie for fieldwork. I realize Teebird doesn't fit your suggestion, but it's probably my favorite disc to throw. Especially with how windy it usually is here in TX.

The only discouraging thing I've ran into is my inability to successfully do these drills. I figured the hard part would be trying to incorporate what you learn from the drills into actually throwing a disc. Not straight up not being able to do the drill. It's like there's one thing missing that I just can't seem to grasp. Some breakthrough has to eventually happen though.

 

[sidewinder22]

The only discouraging thing I've ran into is my inability to successfully do these drills. I figured the hard part would be trying to incorporate what you learn from the drills into actually throwing a disc. Not straight up not being able to do the drill. It's like there's one thing missing that I just can't seem to grasp. Some breakthrough has to eventually happen though.

Yes, I find many people don't do the drills correctly, which is why I usually recommend people video themselves doing them. I often find them setting up in some crazy stance and posture and trying to do too much or swing way too hard or trying to combine different drills/concepts that shouldn't go together.

When you get the drills done correctly it should usually be a rather quick and ah-ha or lightbulb moment and not that hard to integrate into the throw. It will take time though for it to become second nature and make that move/skill/balance better.

 

[Dundee]

Yes, I find many people don't do the drills correctly, which is why I usually recommend people video themselves doing them. I often find them setting up in some crazy stance and posture and trying to do too much or swing way too hard or trying to combine different drills/concepts that shouldn't go together.

When you get the drills done correctly it should usually be a rather quick and ah-ha or lightbulb moment and not that hard to integrate into the throw. It will take time though for it to become second nature and make that move/skill/balance better.

I may have figured something out with the hammer swing. I was doing the drill with a disc indoors and could not hold onto it. Flew out of my hands twice. I think I may have been "falling" into my brace better. I noticed in your loading the bow video that Eagle is leaning towards the target way more than me. I'm way too upright.

Could be nothing. I'll upload another video tonight when I can get out to the field.

 

[Dundee]

Yes, I find many people don't do the drills correctly, which is why I usually recommend people video themselves doing them. I often find them setting up in some crazy stance and posture and trying to do too much or swing way too hard or trying to combine different drills/concepts that shouldn't go together.

When you get the drills done correctly it should usually be a rather quick and ah-ha or lightbulb moment and not that hard to integrate into the throw. It will take time though for it to become second nature and make that move/skill/balance better.

False alarm on the improvements. I don't think it's any better. I actually think I'm just combining different drills that shouldn't be combined. Here is a standstill from today. Sorry for the poor lighting. It was 111 here in TX. Forgot my hammer at home (never imagined I'd say that for disc golf).

https://youtu.be/2f_X4OdM_J8

I will say a had several standstill 300ft Buzzz throws today. Both of these in the video were 300ft.

 

[sidewinder22]

Man, it's going to feel very different, maybe even feel wrong, getting into proper posture to launch/repel something away from yourself instead of launching yourself over top.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogonOY1DoHU#t=40m

Note how much your rear knee bends and moves back behind your ankle in the backswing and your knees are almost touching each other at top of backswing. Note how your pelvis tilts over.

Note how my knees are inside feet/ankles and outside hips. Note how I post up on front hip and rear hip hangs from it and the pelvis swivels freely.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxnhM5amro0#t=1m14s

 

[Dundee]

Man, it's going to feel very different, maybe even feel wrong, getting into proper posture to launch/repel something away from yourself instead of launching yourself over top.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogonOY1DoHU#t=40m

Note how much your rear knee bends and moves back behind your ankle in the backswing and your knees are almost touching each other at top of backswing. Note how your pelvis tilts over.

Note how my knees are inside feet/ankles and outside hips. Note how I post up on front hip and rear hip hangs from it and the pelvis swivels freely.

Yeah, I watched it back and knew it was garbage. Looks nothing like what it should. I hate how I can't tell what my body is doing. It feels like I'm doing something, then I watch it back and I'm not doing anything near what I think I'm doing. That's really the extremely frustrating part of all this. Zero body control.

Do you think it's best for me to make comments and upload videos every couple days to this thread? I feel like it's a lot of work to comment on so many comments where nothing gets better. Should I just make a post once or twice every week?

 

[Dundee]

Man, it's going to feel very different, maybe even feel wrong, getting into proper posture to launch/repel something away from yourself instead of launching yourself over top.

Note how much your rear knee bends and moves back behind your ankle in the backswing and your knees are almost touching each other at top of backswing. Note how your pelvis tilts over.

Note how my knees are inside feet/ankles and outside hips. Note how I post up on front hip and rear hip hangs from it and the pelvis swivels freely.

I've been doing the swinging drills and rewatching videos several times over and videoing just the swing. I have some questions about the videos and your last comments. Want to make sure I'm seeing what needs to be changed. And that I understand the concepts in the videos

1. To fix my knees from touching, should I widen my stance? And keep my rear leg locked (or mostly straight)?

2. "Note how I post up on front hip and rear hip hangs from it and the pelvis swivels freely. "
This confuses me. I see the difference in the images, but I don't understand what letting the rear hop hang and the pelvis swivel. Isn't my pelvis swiveling too?

I have some specific questions about the golf videos. However, first I need to clarify a question I have on stance. As a lefty, referring to your left foot in golf is the same foot in disc golf (not switched)?

First video: I think I feel like inertia he's talking about. If I swing back and forth, I can feel my arm get pulled forward and end up in the high five position I've seen you mention in one of your videos. That's what I should be learning from this video, right?

Second video: My posture should have me leaning over my feet slightly. Enough that I feel my weight on the balls of my feet? Right?

He mentions being "against the left side" in this video several times. I should be against the left side in the entire swing, right? But when I reach max backswing, my weight will actually be on the back foot which will cause my arm to start moving targetward?

From watching these videos, it looks like I should be tilted a little away from the target at the top of the backswing. I'm keeping my weight too much forward, correct?

 

[Brychanus]

Yeah, I watched it back and knew it was garbage. Looks nothing like what it should. I hate how I can't tell what my body is doing. It feels like I'm doing something, then I watch it back and I'm not doing anything near what I think I'm doing. That's really the extremely frustrating part of all this. Zero body control.

Do you think it's best for me to make comments and upload videos every couple days to this thread? I feel like it's a lot of work to comment on so many comments where nothing gets better. Should I just make a post once or twice every week?

Been there. I think rather than worry about the rate of posting you should continue to attack a piece at a time & post to check whenever. SW22 was more than generous at chipping away at how I used almost every joint in my body. I'll weigh in where I can.

I had very little kinesthetic awareness for throwing and it is learnable. Learning to move with and heave weights has been very effective at increasing my body awareness and control. Sry if I forgot - what's your other sports/movement background?

I've been doing the swinging drills and rewatching videos several times over and videoing just the swing. I have some questions about the videos and your last comments. Want to make sure I'm seeing what needs to be changed. And that I understand the concepts in the videos

1. To fix my knees from touching, should I widen my stance? And keep my rear leg locked (or mostly straight)?

2. "Note how I post up on front hip and rear hip hangs from it and the pelvis swivels freely. "
This confuses me. I see the difference in the images, but I don't understand what letting the rear hop hang and the pelvis swivel. Isn't my pelvis swiveling too?

I have some specific questions about the golf videos. However, first I need to clarify a question I have on stance. As a lefty, referring to your left foot in golf is the same foot in disc golf (not switched)?

First video: I think I feel like inertia he's talking about. If I swing back and forth, I can feel my arm get pulled forward and end up in the high five position I've seen you mention in one of your videos. That's what I should be learning from this video, right?

Second video: My posture should have me leaning over my feet slightly. Enough that I feel my weight on the balls of my feet? Right?

He mentions being "against the left side" in this video several times. I should be against the left side in the entire swing, right? But when I reach max backswing, my weight will actually be on the back foot which will cause my arm to start moving targetward?

From watching these videos, it looks like I should be tilted a little away from the target at the top of the backswing. I'm keeping my weight too much forward, correct?

1. I think it's because you never get loaded on the rear leg/into the rear hip hinge correctly, so in your backswing your front leg is collecting in toward the rear leg keep you from falling over forward. So same idea there - need to get loaded into the rear leg like this:

I might try it from that staggered stance and get a check on the loading on this thread. Should feel like you can "sit back" on that rear leg all day before transitioning forward again.

2. Your pelvis is swiveling, but not in a Figure 8 pattern we want. Related to the loading problem, I don't think you are "hinging" quite right:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um5cS9u_Y0w&t=272s&ab_channel=GolfwithAimee

I would try to work on the "loading" first because sometimes it can reveal any other underlying issue.

Will defer on the other vid-specific Q's at the moment!

 

[Dundee]

Been there. I think rather than worry about the rate of posting you should continue to attack a piece at a time & post to check whenever. SW22 was more than generous at chipping away at how I used almost every joint in my body. I'll weigh in where I can.

I had very little kinesthetic awareness for throwing and it is learnable. Learning to move with and heave weights has been very effective at increasing my body awareness and control. Sry if I forgot - what's your other sports/movement background?

1. I think it's because you never get loaded on the rear leg/into the rear hip hinge correctly, so in your backswing your front leg is collecting in toward the rear leg keep you from falling over forward. So same idea there - need to get loaded into the rear leg like this:

I might try it from that staggered stance and get a check on the loading on this thread. Should feel like you can "sit back" on that rear leg all day before transitioning forward again.

2. Your pelvis is swiveling, but not in a Figure 8 pattern we want. Related to the loading problem, I don't think you are "hinging" quite right:

I would try to work on the "loading" first because sometimes it can reveal any other underlying issue.

Will defer on the other vid-specific Q's at the moment!

I played basketball and baseball growing up. I was much better at basketball than baseball. Pitched in baseball but had poor form (sounds familiar huh). I had decent accuracy but no speed at all. Wish there was YouTube for me to watch then.

I tried getting into that position SW22 was with his toes up and heel down. That felt incredibly difficult for me to do. My attempt: https://youtu.be/PtU6Y7V9yes

My rear hip felt extremely tight doing this. It felt like a ton of weight was on my backside. I'll continue working on that part. How do you propel yourself from having your weight on your back foot to the target?

 

[Brychanus]

The rear leg "post" and load followed by the "drift" is the same in baseball pitching and batting as it is for DG, but the posture is a bit different.

In your drill there, you're getting more hinge and weight back, which is good. Might as well start sorting out some posture stuff, which will help you get loaded back/spring off the rear leg more easily and move more freely overall. You might need a little more of an "athletic" bend and posterior load and depth to make it easier to load and move forward like in this golf example:


You typically don't want to be as deep as a basketball player:

and you want the shoulders to be protracted like golf instead of retracted like basketball:

Some players (Kuoksa) get much deeper in the stance, but he's very developed & I would start with a more "golf-like" stance and range of motion at first.

Regarding "Tight" - you want the rear hip/leg to feel weighted and connected to the ground and among the pieces of the leg/hip, so it is "tight" in the mechanical sense. You also want to move freely into and out of it like SW22 shows, which requires good posture and flexibility that some of us lack until we develop it. It felt very strange to me at first too, so working on getting deeper into that hip in good posture made it easier to move everything back and forth. It took a while before my rear leg & hip stopped being "leaky" and gave me easy, clean leverage, and improving posture always helped.

 

[Dundee]

The rear leg "post" and load followed by the "drift" is the same in baseball pitching and batting as it is for DG, but the posture is a bit different.

In your drill there, you're getting more hinge and weight back, which is good. Might as well start sorting out some posture stuff, which will help you get loaded back/spring off the rear leg more easily and move more freely overall. You might need a little more of an "athletic" bend and posterior load and depth to make it easier to load and move forward like in this golf example:

You typically don't want to be as deep as a basketball player:

and you want the shoulders to be protracted like golf instead of retracted like basketball:

Some players (Kuoksa) get much deeper in the stance, but he's very developed & I would start with a more "golf-like" stance and range of motion at first.

Regarding "Tight" - you want the rear hip/leg to feel weighted and connected to the ground and among the pieces of the leg/hip, so it is "tight" in the mechanical sense. You also want to move freely into and out of it like SW22 shows, which requires good posture and flexibility that some of us lack until we develop it. It felt very strange to me at first too, so working on getting deeper into that hip in good posture made it easier to move everything back and forth. It took a while before my rear leg & hip stopped being "leaky" and gave me easy, clean leverage, and improving posture always helped.

I've been experimenting with putting my weight on the back foot in different stances (or posture?). I think I'm arching my back too much (overextending?) and not letting my shoulders protract.

Side view: https://youtu.be/IdWLSbh2IDY
Back view: https://youtu.be/4xPS1IUvtnQ

Am I moving my hips through the throw, correctly? I need to rewatch that SW22 figure eight video some more, but I kind of just naturally started moving my hips kind of in eight pattern while leading with my butt. It never felt like the disc was going to fly out of my hand; however, I think this form video is working in the right direction. Thoughts? I'm going to continue experimenting with orientating my upper body in combination with my foot placement.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah back is extended/arched too much. Should be relaxed into slight flexion.

Should be like walking backwards(reverse elephant walk) into backswing. You start flat footed on rear foot and then rear knee flexes more and jam up the backswing and trying to keep the backswing too wide out. Note how I setup with rear tippy toes only on ground and walk back to heel, and rear knee changes from flexed to extended, back to flexed - walking forward/figure 8.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136487

 

[Dundee]

Yeah back is extended/arched too much. Should be relaxed into slight flexion.

Should be like walking backwards(reverse elephant walk) into backswing. You start flat footed on rear foot and then rear knee flexes more and jam up the backswing and trying to keep the backswing too wide out. Note how I setup with rear tippy toes only on ground and walk back to heel, and rear knee changes from flexed to extended, back to flexed - walking forward/figure 8.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136487

I've been trying the elephant drill and this is definitely another one that I have a lot of things to work out. God knows where the disc will go when I do this drill. Video: https://youtu.be/LLv93WBVddY

It feels really unnatural and weird. Trying to think about having my weight back while walking forward and then shifting it to my front leg is going to take time to do correctly. What else am I doing wrong? I know the disc is going back way too high.

About the knee flexing. I'm confused on the second flex you are talking about. When does that happen? Does this look any better? I know the swing is garbage. Still clumsily trying to get my weight from the back foot to the front foot.
Link: https://youtu.be/ikmzqzrS_DQ

 

[sidewinder22]

Need to get some more heavy swing momentum on the ewalk. I'd suggest getting a 12lbs sledgehammer and swinging it back and forth all the way and feel how your body has to counter balance against the sledgehammer pulling on you. A sledgehammer will pull you right over like a rag doll out of your posture.

 

[Dundee]

Need to get some more heavy swing momentum on the ewalk. I'd suggest getting a 12lbs sledgehammer and swinging it back and forth all the way and feel how your body has to counter balance against the sledgehammer pulling on you. A sledgehammer will pull you right over like a rag doll out of your posture.

If you would have told me when I first started playing disc golf that I would be buying a 12lb sledgehammer for practice, I would have thought you were on something. I now have a 12lb sledgehammer, but I can't seem to find any posts or videos specifically talking about swinging around a sledgehammer. I thought I remember seeing a thread on here with embedded videos of you swinging one around. In any case, do I just practice the same drills I was doing with the claw hammer?

 

[Dundee]

Need to get some more heavy swing momentum on the ewalk. I'd suggest getting a 12lbs sledgehammer and swinging it back and forth all the way and feel how your body has to counter balance against the sledgehammer pulling on you. A sledgehammer will pull you right over like a rag doll out of your posture.

First attempt at sledgehammer swinging: https://youtu.be/E9T7bqcIWEk

I wasn't sure what to focus on. But I was consciously trying to fall into the throw instead of muscle up on the hammer. Not sure if that worked as doing this drill for 20 minutes has left my dominant arm tired anyways. I don't think I'm ever really getting my weight back when I do this. Thoughts?

 

[sidewinder22]

1. You need a lot more space to swing/release that thing back into backswing and forward to target/apex.

2. See Grip notes below about forearm helping grip and butt of handle at elbow instead of shoulder.

3. Actually tossing the sledgehammer should help with the reverse pivot and releasing the hammer forward ahead of the handle instead of dragging the hammer head behind the handle.

 

[Dundee]

1. You need a lot more space to swing/release that thing back into backswing and forward to target/apex.

2. See Grip notes below about forearm helping grip and butt of handle at elbow instead of shoulder.

3. Actually tossing the sledgehammer should help with the reverse pivot and releasing the hammer forward ahead of the handle instead of dragging the hammer head behind the handle.

I haven't found a place I can swing a sledgehammer around outdoors without looking like an insane person. So I've been going back through the initial posts in this thread, specifically the Reciprocating Dingle Arm thread and video.

Here's a link to my practice: https://youtu.be/OdxLyeRtP9M
I didn't record myself doing the windmill portion, but I started out with that first and just moved into the more normal swing, trying to get into the "high five" position and having my arm come to my butt like in the Tilted Twirl Star Burst video. I have some questions.

1. You refer to the back side making a linear move into the plant. Are you consciously pushing off your back foot? I'm doing that in this video, but it seems more relaxed instead of an explosive movement. Should it be explosive? It feels like I'm pushing onto the inside of my brace foot

2. You mention using the off arm to rotate further into the backswing is counterproductive. Is it more that your upper body move back in response to the lateral move and less consciously thinking about rotating back? I definitely have been thinking about it as a rotation up to now. Any improvement in the practice from today?

3. You mention starting the lawnmower and how it relates to keeping the disc low in the backswing as opposed to higher. Won't this lead to air bouncing the disc as you move the disc vertically up as it moves horizontally through the swing? Hopefully that makes sense. Maybe the arm is only slightly less than horizontal and it doesn't matter much?

I didn't think about disc angle at all while doing this. So I'll need to cross that bridge sometime.

 

[sidewinder22]

Need to turn your front foot slightly open so your knee can brace your hip.