Trying to get my backhand form to 400ft and beyond

[Dundee]

Note how both your heels remain low so you are essentially stuck on both feet, instead of fully shifting from one foot balance to the other foot balance with one heel up/foot released from ground and can swivel the leg freely.

I can tell I'm not doing this right. It kind of feels like my body is in the shape of a backwards C when doing this drill. Also kind of like I'm trying to throw myself at the target.

https://youtu.be/_b50_iOcmVU

 

[Brychanus]

*Edit: keep trending this way. I can tell it feels brand new to you & that's a good thing.

I might recommend:

1. Get your arm, hand, and disc to feel heavier going both ways. The legs should be helping shift your body around, but you need some "heft" in your hand which is part of what helps coil you up into the backswing, and then part of what leads the disc in the swing. A big freeswinging heavy arm is lots of free power. SW sometimes reminds - your arm weighs more than most sledgehammers (around 5.7% of your weight for men). Use that to your advantage when you're moving.

Simon's arm is pretty heavy when he swings:

2. You've got some of that "artificial wide" reachback going on. It is easier to get everything working & especially on the rear side if you start by letting the arm swing back all the way more like holding a hammer or ram. Letting the arm feel heavy is a big part of how it works. I think people sometimes misunderstand how people like McBeth's backswing work - camera angle relative to the stance matters.

You might first mistake that Simon is swinging "wide" from him. Instead, he's shifting over his feet coiling back and still landing like dropping against a door frame:

3. It might help to see more DROP off the rear leg into the plant and resist the ground for now- I can tell your body doesn't want to hinge & golf swing or hockey slapshot. You'll probably need to exaggerate that part.

 

[Dundee]

Continuing working on this. The first part of the video is me trying to exaggerate what I think the weight shift is supposed to feel like. I think the second one is better than the first attempt, as my knees look wrong in the first try. I went a little faster on the last few attempts just to see if it felt any better than slo mo.

https://youtu.be/Rtv1l_coS3c

 

[Dundee]

Also, what does "resist the ground" mean? I've heard people say that before and never understood that terminology. The wide reachback is definitely something that I started doing after watching way too many YouTube form videos. Probably misunderstood what they were trying to say, because it definitely can be misconceiving watching other people's form.

 

[sidewinder22]

I don't know if your anatomy is physically different or if it's just posture/setup. I don't think your ankle should be rolled in and have a crease in your hip. Note how I'm standing up more on the foot/leg, my ankle is slightly rolled over and have no crease in my shorts/hip.

I'd be interested in watching you do the perpetually longer swing drill, moving from one foot balance to other foot balance.

 

[Dundee]

I don't know if your anatomy is physically different or if it's just posture/setup. I don't think your ankle should be rolled in and have a crease in your hip. Note how I'm standing up more on the foot/leg, my ankle is slightly rolled over and have no crease in my shorts/hip.

I'd be interested in watching you do the perpetually longer swing drill, moving from one foot balance to other foot balance.

Well, I'd assume it's anything but anatomy. The only thing that came to mind anatomy-wise is that I'm very flat footed, no arch at all. It's never been a problem in other sports, so I'm pretty hesitant to think that has anything to do with it instead of my form.

https://youtu.be/Mn_kJUHW3wM

Here I am doing the swing drill. About halfway through this, I realized I'm swinging my arm forward before I shift my body forward.

Also, should I be able to wiggle my plant foot toes after I've shifted to the front leg? I haven't been able to do that before and noticed it just now. Kind of forces me to stay on my heel. I was only doing this half the time though.

Edit: I also was wearing shoes that don't have much structure, so my feet can move around a bit. In this video I'm wearing the shoes I play in. Not sure if that has anything to do with it.

 

[sidewinder22]

I have zero arch but I wear orthodics. Shoes with good lateral stability and zero drop or fairly low heel help. Most running shoes are terrible. Toes can wiggle after the heel comes down. Your pressure should be moving toes to heel. If you can't move your toes then you are too into your toes and also the high heel shoes tend to keep pressure into the toes so then you have to jump up as you can't pivot.

It is ok for the swing to start forward before you fully shift in this drill and also turning the front foot slightly open. You shouldn't be jumping off either side, but get pulled off. You have this weird pop in your hips instead of a smooth fluid motion.

Your off arm was way out of control in the side view. Keep your rear elbow in tight all the way to the release, only then let it come up targetward like an uppercut - not out around like a hook.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvvF6eW-by8#t=7m30s

 

[Dundee]

I have zero arch but I wear orthodics. Shoes with good lateral stability and zero drop or fairly low heel help. Most running shoes are terrible. Toes can wiggle after the heel comes down. Your pressure should be moving toes to heel. If you can't move your toes then you are too into your toes and also the high heel shoes tend to keep pressure into the toes so then you have to jump up as you can't pivot.

It is ok for the swing to start forward before you fully shift in this drill and also turning the front foot slightly open. You shouldn't be jumping off either side, but get pulled off. You have this weird pop in your hips instead of a smooth fluid motion.

Your off arm was way out of control in the side view. Keep your rear elbow in tight all the way to the release, only then let it come up targetward like an uppercut - not out around like a hook.

Do you feel like orthotics help with disc golf, or do you wear them due to pain/comfort reasons? I've never had foot pain so it's not something I've ever really thought about. I guess I should consider it to avoid future foot pains down the road when I'm older. Does zero drop mean flat shoes? Kind of like what you would wear for squats? I will look into different shoes. I've already considered trying out more water resistant shoes.

So what exactly is this drill working on? Just shifting from the back to front leg? You mentioning jumping off either side. Do you mention that because that's what I'm doing? I assume the weird pop with the hips is me purposely trying to bring my hips forward before the rest of my body. Should I be thinking about that? I will work on the off arm. It's always been a problem for me.

So am I shifting correctly in that video, but it's just not smooth?

Another thing I wanted to clarify is implementing this into actual throws. I was checking out the Rocking the Hips thread and it just confused me more. The McBeth image on the opening post shows him in between his legs. His upper body and end aren't centered over the plant leg. Why not? Isn't that what I'm supposed to be trying to achieve? Also, one of the posters quoted you linking an AMG video that made have more questions. When I should I be doing this recenter move? Have we been talking about this before, just with different wording?

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134329

https://youtu.be/AMEpdcWPttg

I guess I'm just confused on shifting now. Should I reach max reachback and then move my hips forward and keep the arm back? Do the hips and arm move forward at the same time? Before any of this happens, the heel has to come down first correct? Are the hips moving forward at the same time as the heel goes down? Should I feel like I am literally resisting from my arm coming forward? Because that's what it feels like, especially in the fast behind view swing.

 

[sidewinder22]

I've worn orthodics since I was a little kid. I can tell when I need new ones, typically my knees start hurting as they get out of alignment from the feet. My feet will suction to the pool deck when wet. Typically flatter shoes are better, lot of pros wear zero drop or minimalist. I can't do the minimalist shoes. Crosstrainers and hikers typically have good lateral stability.

There should be a ying yang where your center pulls the swing and then the swing pulls your center back and forth. It should be very flowing/gliding, not jerky. I think the hip pop might be your joints are out of alignment and/or you are trying to do too much.

 

[Brychanus]

Also, what does "resist the ground" mean? I've heard people say that before and never understood that terminology. The wide reachback is definitely something that I started doing after watching way too many YouTube form videos. Probably misunderstood what they were trying to say, because it definitely can be misconceiving watching other people's form.

Just one thing about your last drill there & I've seen this in a couple people (and had trouble too) - it kinda looks like you're really emphasizing the crush as an action of the leg extending maybe at the knee into the ground rather than dropping onto it and resisting the ground. That's what SW is doing here. Literally hopping on one leg like this was very helpful for me:

And Gibson is doing it here in his "shift from behind".

You sometimes see a little bit of plant leg extension at the knee before impact like you might notice in Gibson there, but I think that's mostly about just helping soften the impact/transition the ground reaction force faster. The leg should just swing in and catch you naturally.

So, you really want to get the drop and feel the action of your leg preventing you from collapsing kind of driving the rear hip open - like SW is saying it's smooth but powerful. The better you land on it in a way that clears that front hip smoothly, the happier your joints will be. This didn't happen naturally for me moving in the BH direction so I had to exaggerate it a bit/focus on resisting the ground harder in One Leg Drill even after hopping at first.


Orthotics/flat feet: I'm flat-footed but perhaps not quite suction-cupping like SW. I had a spiral fracture in my left leg when I was young leaving it to develop a little shorter than my right leg. I'm flat-footed and wear a taller orthotic on the left foot than the right - that also initially started after some knee issues. My ankles also used to be pretty weak and I would roll them frequently. I've had the most success with Merrells that fit snug but not too tight and are very stable when moving laterally. Seabas kick the can and conscious attention to walking with more plantar flexion has helped with some of the foot stuff since I've probably been moving flat-footed most of my life.

 

[Dundee]

Just one thing about your last drill there & I've seen this in a couple people (and had trouble too) - it kinda looks like you're really emphasizing the crush as an action of the leg extending maybe at the knee into the ground rather than dropping onto it and resisting the ground. That's what SW is doing here. Literally hopping on one leg like this was very helpful for me:

And Gibson is doing it here in his "shift from behind".

You sometimes see a little bit of plant leg extension at the knee before impact like you might notice in Gibson there, but I think that's mostly about just helping soften the impact/transition the ground reaction force faster. The leg should just swing in and catch you naturally.

So, you really want to get the drop and feel the action of your leg preventing you from collapsing kind of driving the rear hip open - like SW is saying it's smooth but powerful. The better you land on it in a way that clears that front hip smoothly, the happier your joints will be. This didn't happen naturally for me moving in the BH direction so I had to exaggerate it a bit/focus on resisting the ground harder in One Leg Drill even after hopping at first.


Orthotics/flat feet: I'm flat-footed but perhaps not quite suction-cupping like SW. I had a spiral fracture in my left leg when I was young leaving it to develop a little shorter than my right leg. I'm flat-footed and wear a taller orthotic on the left foot than the right - that also initially started after some knee issues. My ankles also used to be pretty weak and I would roll them frequently. I've had the most success with Merrells that fit snug but not too tight and are very stable when moving laterally. Seabas kick the can and conscious attention to walking with more plantar flexion has helped with some of the foot stuff since I've probably been moving flat-footed most of my life.

I have definitely been using my leg a lot to bring my heel down. Watching SW22 jump one legged on the can has me confused when comparing to Drew. Is it as simple as SW22 just jumping? I can't really tell what Drew is actually doing here. Whenever I watch pro form, I just see them striding towards the target. Makes me feel pretty dumb that I cannot see what's happening here.

When you say the leg "catches" you, what does that mean? Are you basically just falling over towards the target? How do I practice this? Because I know for a 100% fact that I'm not letting myself just fall. Should I be on my back leg and then tilt away from the target to make me start falling towards the target? That's the only way I can to make that happen, and it lines up with the Rocking the Hips thread.

So I think I walk with "dorsiflexion" based on a quick google search. My heel always comes down first if I'm walking. Maybe this why I have trouble with the plantar flexion movement. I don't do it normally, let alone sideways and while trying to be athletic.

 

[sidewinder22]

Only difference with Drew is the horizontal momentum, so his dynamic balance is / instead of l.

 

[sidewinder22]

Makes me feel pretty dumb that I cannot see what's happening here.

When you say the leg "catches" you, what does that mean? Are you basically just falling over towards the target? How do I practice this? Because I know for a 100% fact that I'm not letting myself just fall. Should I be on my back leg and then tilt away from the target to make me start falling towards the target? That's the only way I can to make that happen, and it lines up with the Rocking the Hips thread.

So I think I walk with "dorsiflexion" based on a quick google search. My heel always comes down first if I'm walking. Maybe this why I have trouble with the plantar flexion movement. I don't do it normally, let alone sideways and while trying to be athletic.

Don't feel dumb, a lot of this is not intuitive. It took me a long time to figure some of this stuff out. Had to watch some videos over and over.

I'd be interested in just seeing how you walk normally.

Tilt back and forth to remain in dynamic balance.

 

[Brychanus]

Echoing not to feel dumb. If you've ever seen my form thread you'll know I'm sympathetic ;-)

Also, strike from the record where I wrote "kinda driving the rear hip open" above - was writing too fast.

"Catches" you: one of the things that confused my body for way too long was the fact that the plant leg should swing in like a REFLEX to keep you from falling. Once your CoG drifts far enough ahead of your drive leg, that plant leg will want to swing in and catch you on its own to prevent you from falling on your ass - that's part of why the Hershyzer drill works. When you do Hershyzer over a big shift or hop, it's also easier to realize that once your plant leg hits the ground it should be starting to resist the ground - which is also why your front hip starts to clear and where big swing power is transmitted up the chain. Doing that move in hops or on freewheeling tilted axis like DD helps tie it together. Over time you and your body will realize that the vertical can hop crush is working exactly like DD with a swing on a tilted axis - it's just very vertical relative to the ground.

Seeing it & doing it: a lot of this stuff has gotten easier for me to see in top throwers once my body started doing it better. Then you don't really have to think about it much after the move is well-practiced and it's easier to adjust or learn new things.

I think seeing you walk would be good. Seeing you do the hop and swing will start to help you let yourself "freefall" into the plant, and pairing it with double dragon will help connect that with the tilted axis.

By the way I think if you try to learn the tilt without learning to "fall" and swing your whole body like DD it's usually problematic. I would always lean or something, and I think a lot of players do too trying to manipulate it. It's also harder if you never did something that uses that skiing - like tilted axis before.

So instead of trying to think to much or manipulate it, learning DD and the can hop-swing will start to force your body to do it more correctly.

 

[Dundee]

Don't feel dumb, a lot of this is not intuitive. It took me a long time to figure some of this stuff out. Had to watch some videos over and over.

I'd be interested in just seeing how you walk normally.

Tilt back and forth to remain in dynamic balance.

https://youtu.be/uHmEtk7nkrQ

Took video of me walking and trying the DD drill. I didn't bother going into the arm swing aspect, just because I feel like my hands are already full as it is with the lower body. When I do this, it feels like my foot swings behind me. So if the target was northward, it feels like my leg swings out and toward the northwest. Hopefully that makes sense. 100% have never felt like this in a normal throw; however, I've been stepping out wide since the entire time I've been playing disc golf.

At the end I went ahead and tried thinking about this movement with a disc. You can see my body do like a little "hop" which doesn't seem right. My arm is super messed up but I didn't concern myself too much with it.

 

[Dundee]

Echoing not to feel dumb. If you've ever seen my form thread you'll know I'm sympathetic ;-)

Also, strike from the record where I wrote "kinda driving the rear hip open" above - was writing too fast.

"Catches" you: one of the things that confused my body for way too long was the fact that the plant leg should swing in like a REFLEX to keep you from falling. Once your CoG drifts far enough ahead of your drive leg, that plant leg will want to swing in and catch you on its own to prevent you from falling on your ass - that's part of why the Hershyzer drill works. When you do Hershyzer over a big shift or hop, it's also easier to realize that once your plant leg hits the ground it should be starting to resist the ground - which is also why your front hip starts to clear and where big swing power is transmitted up the chain. Doing that move in hops or on freewheeling tilted axis like DD helps tie it together. Over time you and your body will realize that the vertical can hop crush is working exactly like DD with a swing on a tilted axis - it's just very vertical relative to the ground.

Seeing it & doing it: a lot of this stuff has gotten easier for me to see in top throwers once my body started doing it better. Then you don't really have to think about it much after the move is well-practiced and it's easier to adjust or learn new things.

I think seeing you walk would be good. Seeing you do the hop and swing will start to help you let yourself "freefall" into the plant, and pairing it with double dragon will help connect that with the tilted axis.

By the way I think if you try to learn the tilt without learning to "fall" and swing your whole body like DD it's usually problematic. I would always lean or something, and I think a lot of players do too trying to manipulate it. It's also harder if you never did something that uses that skiing - like tilted axis before.

So instead of trying to think to much or manipulate it, learning DD and the can hop-swing will start to force your body to do it more correctly.

Hmm I know for a fact I haven't been thinking about my leg swinging as a reflex to catch myself. I haven't been thinking about catching myself in general. I just stride out towards the target, walking more like a crab, sideways to the target. I did the DD (post above), and this was pretty obvious that I'm catching myself with my leg. Now how you do that in a throw… I can see how you resist the ground now too. I doubt I'm doing here correctly, but I can see a bit better what y'all are saying. I feel like I have been thinking way too hard about this, going down the rabbit hole.

Never skied before. Unfortunately a lot of the sport comparisons go over my head. Even though I played basketball and baseball for a decent part of my childhood into high school, I kind of just did what felt natural and never learned the actual mechanics.

 

[Dundee]

Still at it. Still doing the same things. I hate that my head always ends up in the same position. Like an obvious sign I'm doing it wrong. Such a terrible habit I have created.

https://youtu.be/ek9H2Ct13W0

Am I leading with my butt correctly? I feel like I am, but not sure. Once I lead with my butt, I can't naturally force myself heel down by gravity. I naturally want to use my leg to get my front heel down instead of let my body weight take care of it

 

[sidewinder22]

1. Would still like to see how you normally walk.

2. Can see your hips doing that weird pop in DD, instead of pivoting/swiveling/gliding like smooth oil.

3. Need to flare your feet open/out. You are turned in to much I think and restricting your hips.

4. Your kicking hip should get back behind posted hip or back to it and head over foot.

5. What discs are you throwing?

 

[Dundee]

https://youtu.be/MRBnCFpOiyc

Still working at it. I'm trying to fall into the throw at the same time I'm rotating my hips backwards. I know my head is supposed to be in the center of my legs, as they make an "A" frame. But whenever I fall into the plant like that, I end up collapsing onto my front leg. At least that's what it looks like to me. Am I supposed to be falling into the plant but also push back with the ball of my plant foot?

Edit: Oh, I just saw your post. My bad. This probably isn't relevant anymore

 

[sidewinder22]

You are kind of doing a reverse pivot.