What can you appeal?

[ToddL]

801.03.B refers to group decisions, and an officials decision. It does not say call & confirm decisions.

This is my question - can call & confirm decisions be appealed?

This isn't going to be an answer at all, so don't get your hopes up...

It's very difficult for practically any call to get appealed to the TD. In most cases, the TD's answer should be "I dunno, I wasn't there, what do you expect me to do about it?"
A TD can't see if you committed a stance violation. A TD can't see if you improperly marked a disc. A TD can't see if took too much time. (All call-and-confirm "violations")
But likewise, a TD can't see if your disc was OB or in a hazard or above 2 meters (all group decisions).

What a TD can really do is explain the rules in more detail and answer questions.

Clarification example: A player's disc landed straddling the 10m circle. He chose not to use a mini marker and took a jump putt from behind the disc. His cardmates said "Hey, foot fault maybe? I don't know the rules, so let's ask the TD after the round. If the rules are actually X, then penalty. If the rules are actually Y, then no penalty." TDs get those questions all the time. They're not really appeals; they're just clarifications.
I think the vast majority of cases of a card talking to the TD is really just to get clarification on an issue, not to appeal a call/ruling/decision.

Appeal example: A player is playing an L-shaped dogleg hole. Their disc is in the fairway in the first half of the dogleg (before the corner). They take their stance behind the disc on the line-of-play to the basket, so it kinda looks like they're standing beside their disc relative to the fairway. The cardmates call a stance violation (call and confirm). The player says "Guys, you don't know the damn rules, let's talk to the TD after the round." The TD might say "I dunno, I wasn't there, I can't make the call" or the TD might say "The rule about line-of-play and stance is XYZ. Now that I've clarified that for you, do you people still think it was a stance violation? I wasn't there to see it, so I have to trust your judgment and memory."

 

[teemkey]

...
What a TD can really do is explain the rules in more detail and answer questions.
...

Most of the appeals I've experienced are exactly this.

Several times a violation was called when the players were unaware of a rule update; a couple of times a local rule (OB/casual relief) explained during the player's meeting was missed by members of a group.

 

[cheesethin]

This isn't going to be an answer at all, so don't get your hopes up...

Thank you for managing my expectations

It's very difficult for practically any call to get appealed to the TD. In most cases, the TD's answer should be "I dunno, I wasn't there, what do you expect me to do about it?"

What a TD can really do is explain the rules in more detail and answer questions.

Yes. Thinking deeper in to this since posing my question - I agree with you. This is probably the crux of the matter - that virtually all appeals to the TD will essentially be requests for clarifications as to what the rules actually are for a specific situation, and how they are applied. So any differentiation between group calls and call & confirm rules, in terms of appeal-ability, would be nonsensical.

As you, and I think rastnav, have brought up - if someone incorrectly interprets the stance rules and calls you on a violation - a player needs to be able to appeal the incorrect application of the rules.

This came up because someone on reddit asked about appealing a courtesy violation - and before answering I checked the rule book on appeals, and became uncertain because of the wording.

Maybe 801.03 doesn't need the word group? After all it is not just your card mates that can call rules on you - any affected player can call a courtesy violation.

801.03 Appeals

B. A player may appeal a group decision to an Official, or an Official's decision to the Director, by clearly and promptly stating that desire to the group. If an Official or the Director is readily available, the group may stand aside and allow other groups to play through while the appeal is being heard.

 

[krupicka]

Todd has two great posts here that go through what is in the rules and the practical nature of appeals. I don't feel the need to add on to those.

There also does appear to be a need to update the text of 801.03.B; the RC will consider what needs to be done there.

 

[araytx]

Please quote the rule on that...

It would be interesting to hear from a PDGA Rules Committee person. The information I posted was based on experience and what I saw as a tournament volunteer. I could be completely wrong, but it's what I've seen and had explained to me in tournaments.

Todd has two great posts here that go through what is in the rules and the practical nature of appeals. I don't feel the need to add on to those.

There also does appear to be a need to update the text of 801.03.B; the RC will consider what needs to be done there.

Several things --

Bill, Mike Krupicka is one, in fact the main one as of this year. Trust what he tells us.

Mike, I, like Todd and cheesy was referring to the very first one, 801.02A. [shorter versions] Players (each one) are assigned to groups (the "card," consisting of all the individual players so assigned) for the purposes of scoring and adhering to the rules. Any determination made by the group is made by the majority of the group.

OK, I'm not sure if you were asking me for me to show you or to point out that you think the rules don't really say that ... but I think they do. Nothing in the last sentence of 801.02A comes closes to implying, much less saying, that the player subject to violation doesn't get a vote. It says the "majority of the group," and I don't need the Bill Clinton thing at that point. We have a definition of the group from the first sentence (ALL the players assigned to that card), and to me the word "majority" is clear under regular English.

EDIT ...my original question was asking.

801.03.B refers to group decisions, and an officials decision. It does not say call & confirm decisions.

This is my question - can call & confirm decisions be appealed?

This is what I was saying before. Your answer is in your question. The "appeal rule" refers to GROUP decisions. (you said that). Since it doesn't refer to call and confirm decisions, like it or not, as currently written those are not "appealable." Secondly, from my interp, all the "appealable" decisions require provisionals, which call & confirms would not have to apply

 

[araytx]

My point is that there are very few cases where the rules state that a group is to make a decision. That is one of the reasons a number of the QA rules are being changed for 2021. They incorrectly brought in a group decision where the rules did not state that a group decision is required.

Correct me if I am wrong. What is and what is not a "group" decision, will be clarified in the 2021 update.

 

[Rastnav]

Several things --

Since it doesn't refer to call and confirm decisions, like it or not, as currently written those are not "appealable." Secondly, from my interp, all the "appealable" decisions require provisionals, which call & confirms would not have to apply

This is what I asked Mike earlier and he wasn't receptive to the idea that call and confirms aren't appealable. I'd love something solid on whether call and confirms are appealable, as people seem to have concluded that a call and confirm can be rescinded in some manner if a rule has been misapplied, via the TD explaining the correct rule.

Perhaps that is just via the person who called the violation rescinding it, but then that wouldn't be an appeal.

 

[krupicka]

Correct me if I am wrong. What is and what is not a "group" decision, will be clarified in the 2021 update.

ihttps://www.pdga.com/news/updates-coming-pdga-official-rules-disc-golf-competition-manual-2021

It does not answer everything here, but it is a step forward.

 

[araytx]

ihttps://www.pdga.com/news/updates-coming-pdga-official-rules-disc-golf-competition-manual-2021

It does not answer everything here, but it is a step forward.

Thanks, MK

 

[araytx]

ihttps://www.pdga.com/news/updates-coming-pdga-official-rules-disc-golf-competition-manual-2021

It does not answer everything here, but it is a step forward.

Thanks, MK

Seems like a lot of those are about "group decisions".