A Dialogue on Disc Wear

[cajual]

Recently in a series of emails back and forth between Jubuttib and myself I had several questions answered that had been looming since becoming interested in the more peripheral aspects of Discgolf.

For some this information may seem commonsensical and basic, let me assure you however that for a new player on this site, exposed to so much terminology and culture at once, some of these concepts seem much more daunting and ominous than they truly are.

I can only hope that some of the other new, yet serious, players out there benefit from this the way I have.

Please note that it is a slight read, I chose to keep it more conversational in form to help stay true to Jubuttib's wording and language.

Thanks (especially to you Jubuttib),
-------------------------------------------------------
Dialogues of Wear; cajuaL to jubuttib

Cajual: I have had a lot of trouble finding pointed information on the wearing process that a disc goes through as it ages so to speak and would love the chance to pick your brain while I have you.

So to begin;

How does a disc wear in?

jubuttib: Depends on the disc and plastic, but on a general level discs tend to get understable with time. The initial break in period is pretty fast, of the order of 1-2 weeks or so for baseline, a month or maybe two for premium. During that initial break in period the flash wears down and the disc gets a bit banged up. How much the flight changes during that period is dependent on the disc (PDs don't really wear in that much during that initial period). After that the breaking in slows down, and the discs can stay on pretty much the same level of wear for a long time, even years. Like my favorite S-PD (2nd run orange Freak that started out almost as overstable as the first runs) that I've had in the bag for two years, and it's only now getting a bit of turn to it, and still has plenty of fade at the end of its flight. I think I still have about a year two at the very least in that thing before it gets understable on me.

Discs can also wear in different ways. A Roc for example has a tendency to lose its fade while retaining its high speed stability, meaning it gets straighter before getting understable. A Katana will more likely lose high speed stability while retaining the fade, meaning it's going to get more wayward and require more room to work it as it beats in. Then there are some that lose both at about the same rate and just get consistently more understable.

Premiums last longer but baseline is easy to beat in if you need the understability.

Cajual: Could you elaborate slightly more on the wearing process for the different types of plastics?

jubuttib: Baseline usually seasons in a few weeks, upper baseline (pro) within months. Not to unusable, but noticeably worn, and will after that fly more or less the same for a while, depending on the mold and blend of plastic. With premium plastic it can indeed take quite a bit of time, and I guess you could say it never actually ends. Discs get more beat up pretty much to infinity, though in some rare cases they actually suddenly get super-duper overstable again. But that usually applies only to discs beaten to hell and back again, and then having been a chew toy for a dog for a couple of years.

Cajual: Is there good and bad wear? Are gouges / gashes / cuts etc THAT big of a deal? Can I have faith in my putter off the teebox even if it regularly hits the basket and becomes roughed up?

jubuttib: They can ruin a disc, but what seems to be the most important thing is that the hits the disc takes actually bend the wing down, lowering PLH. That and they get structurally weaker, bent out of shape and unstable. If the disc is beaded and the bead wears down noticeably, that's going to affect stability. Smaller nicks and scratches usually don't affect flight much at all, but big gouges can make discs more understable. The process of beating in a disc hasn't been studied objectively all that much. I've only read one study where they took three identical DX Valkyries, made sure they flew the same, measured things like wing height, diameter, dome, weight etc., then one was designated as a control disc, one received some throws on a field and one got thrown against walls etc. After that they measured them again and compared the flights, control staying the most stable, field thrown one getting a bit less stable and wall bashed one getting markedly understable.

If you're worried about the putters, just throw them and see if they can still take a drive. =) If you're worried about your putting putters getting too beat for driving duties, simply get other ones (perhaps in a premium plastic) for driving duties and relegate them for putting when they get too beat.

Cajual: What is the infamous sweet spot? How long does a disc typically stay in this stage?

jubuttib: It depends on the disc, the plastic, where you play (how hard the ground is, are there lots of trees etc.) and what you find the sweet spot to be. =) For some the Roc is at its best when it has a bit of turn and almost zero fade, and it can hang around in this state for years, even in baseline. Then again a Pro Destroyer will stay in it's almost totally neutral sweet spot for only a couple of months, unless you really treat it with care. Before that it's going to have a bit too much fade, and after that it's going to develop turn. As a good rule of thumb a disc that starts out a bit too overstable for the purpose you're trying to use it for will beat into the sweet spot gradually and stay there for way longer than a disc that starts out flying just like you want it to. A good example is that S-PD I mentioned earlier. When I first got it I mainly used it for wind fighting and shots that needed lots of fade, then it beat in a bit and hit a sweet spot where it was very reliable but wouldn't fade too early or too much and stayed there for about a year. Now it's gotten some turn and I think it's in an even sweeter spot, since it's still reliable and now it's even more workable than before.

But like I said, it depends on the disc. Generally a premium disc will stay in it's sweet spot for a longer time than baseline, and more neutral and overstable discs will also stay usable for longer than out of the box understable discs

Cajual: Is it bad to manually remove flash etc by using an exacto, concrete, sand paper, or any other coarse surface? And if not, what are some ways you can do this correctly?

jubuttib: Removing the flash is usually not considered a bad thing, since it's basically a molding flaw that isn't in the design. If you get rid of that manually (sanding, X-acto knife, rubbing it on concrete) you can basically take care of the initial wear in period before you start using the disc. Especially if it's premium it won't beat in fast after that, baselines still get dinged up and a solid rock or tree hit can completely destroy a baseline disc in one fell swoop. You probably want to do this to discs that are meant to be stable to overstable or stable to understable, since those discs will fly more overstable than they're supposed to before you get rid of the flash. If you have a really overstable disc that you want to keep that way for as long as possible you want to leave that flash in there.

Beating discs against trees, walls, etc. on purpose is basically forbidden by the rules, but since it's just about impossible to detect many people do it. Usually you'd want to let a disc beat in naturally and not accelerate the process, but if you really love beat in Wraiths for example you might want to get a few new ones and just blast them into submission. I sort of feel that way about my D-MD2's, I use them as an understable complement for my other MD2's and they need to be beaten in to understable before they're of much use to me.

By the way, if you want to beat in discs, a good way to do it is to go to a field and practice a bunch. Especially thumber and roller practice wears discs down quickly.

Cajual: Is that legitimate about it being illegal to throw your disc purposely into things?

jubuttib: It's basically a part of the rule that you aren't allowed to make modifications to the disc that affects the flight, actually meaning more like bending them, cutting of pieces, adding stuff etc. but beating it in through artificial means qualifies too. It's almost impossible to spot a disc that has been altered like that and it's been the subject of many a fruitless conversation in the past. Best not to drag it back up...

You ARE however allowed to fix gouges, scrapes etc. by sanding and cutting sharp edges etc.

Cajual: What is your best advice on cycling discs to help build multiples of each stage?

jubuttib: For overstable, moderately overstable or neutral plastic you basically just use the disc for what it's meant for as long as it still has the stability you want. When it gets beaten enough to not handle it's original duty anymore you assign it another duty and put a new overstable one in. You can basically keep doing this as long as you want, as long as the discs stay throwable (or rollable) you can just keep resupplying the overstable slot with new discs while continuously beating in the older ones. If you run into a situation where your new discs beat in faster than your older ones, you're basically getting a steady supply of beaten in back-ups. A beaten in overstable disc is often more reliable for understable duties than a disc that starts out understable.

Understable plastic works basically the same way, but if you start out with an understable disc there's really nowhere else to go except even more understable. I guess if you need rollers, then this is good for you.

 

[InvaderMirO]

Quality Information!

 

[Widdershins]

The last question and answer were interesting:

Cajual: What is your best advice on cycling discs to help build multiples of each stage?

jubuttib: For overstable, moderately overstable or neutral plastic you basically just use the disc for what it's meant for as long as it still has the stability you want. When it gets beaten enough to not handle it's original duty anymore you assign it another duty and put a new overstable one in. You can basically keep doing this as long as you want, as long as the discs stay throwable (or rollable) you can just keep resupplying the overstable slot with new discs while continuously beating in the older ones. If you run into a situation where your new discs beat in faster than your older ones, you're basically getting a steady supply of beaten in back-ups. A beaten in overstable disc is often more reliable for understable duties than a disc that starts out understable.

Understable plastic works basically the same way, but if you start out with an understable disc there's really nowhere else to go except even more understable. I guess if you need rollers, then this is good for you.

#########################################

Here is my take: For any serious golfer having backup discs in various stages of wear is essential. Replacing a new, overstable disc only takes a moment and a few practice throws to make sure how overstable it is. The longer a disc is used, the harder it is to replace.

For players who practice regularly breaking in discs and knowing where they are at it is natural but it takes time and planning to create a cycle of discs in stock. You don't want to practice with one disc anyway. Why throw one shot then walk after it when you can throw a stack before you collect them? Mike Raley, a friend on Team Discraft, has a box of 30 Surges and a box of 30 Buzzz's which he takes to the practice field.

I do it a bit differently. I don't need 30 Buzzz's all at the same level , rather I want a stack of 8-10 Buzzz's in each of 3 stages of wear (fresh, medium and flippy). Through the years I have compiled many backup discs and used them until they are broken in and well known to me. Still it takes so long to break in a Buzzz to get it to the flippy stage that I only have 6 of them built up. My favorite 3 Buzzz's (one in each stage) go in the tournament bag, then I figure out which ones are in the 2nd string, 3rd string and 4th string. When I pack for a major tournament ( Worlds, State Finals) I often assemble a complete 2nd and 3rd strings, making it easy to locate a disc in case of loss or risk.

When I come to a risky hole on a course, I don't throw any broken in disc from the 1st string and depending on the risk, maybe none from any of the top 4. There are certain times of the year (deep leaves or some snowy conditions) where I clear everything flippy out of my bag and go with risk discs, all from my practice supply.

Drivers are more difficult to create a rotation cycle with than putters or mids. Drivers are meant to be thrown harder and farther and at my advanced age I can no longer go to the practice field and throw drives for an extended time. 10 to 20 drives and my arm needs a rest so I end up practicing more with putters and mids.

One of my main drivers is a Z Flash. My favorite Flash is also my most broken in one but it hasn't changed an iota in 2 years and I throw this disc a lot. I wish it would break in more but I won't risk any fast track method to do this. The same is true with my 1st run Z Tracker. I have multiple back ups for both but none as broken in as I want them.

jubuttibb's last comment is true: " A beaten in overstable disc is often more reliable for understable duties than a disc that starts out understable." I have noticed this before and wondered why it is true. I think because a broken in disc doesn't change stability that much at slower speeds. A Crush (overstable driver) is still a Crush even once it is broken in until you throw it hard. Since you practice with a disc for a long time, maybe years, to break it in, you learn that disc very well at different speeds and in different conditions. So if you need to fight a headwind and make a shot go straight, that seasoned Crush will battle the wind initially before it ends up flattening out as you hope it will. A new but straight flying driver may get turned right out of your hand and never have a chance to finish well.

 

[jubuttib]

A great post Mark. I'd like to point out that when I wrote that last comment it was almost 5AM and in hindsight I probably should have slept on it before writing that part. The way you're going about it though is to me the way of someone who knows what they're doing when cycling discs. I was mainly thinking along the lines of instructing someone who is just starting out and doesn't really know anything about cycling discs, only has a few discs and certainly won't be buying a stack of identical discs on a whim.

I definitely agree that if you're basing any aspect of your bag in the same mold in different stages of wear, you'd need to have plenty of discs in all the stages of wear you're going to need, so you can replace them when necessary, even if that means beating some in throwing thumbers on the practice field.

 

[cajual]

A great post Mark.

I second that ^

 

[InvaderMirO]

i wont typically "beat" my discs on purpose to get them where i want them.
but in specific instances besides my typical flash removal if necessary i find a good way to quickly season a disc but not destroy it is to throw a few in the dryer with a towel and let them bounce around for a while. if still not where i want them i will then take em out and let loose a couple of throws into a metal fence backstop, this will usually cause a nice peppering of dents and abrasions but provided your not throwing full strength and still getting spin on the disc it won't eat them up to an extreme like people who suggest throwing them on concrete and whatnot. Im no longer addicted to the nicely seasoned "money" wraiths like i used to be ( thanks Surge SS ) but back when having a varied supply of those was all i used for driving i would grab 3 and break them in with this method, obviously with various stages of wear on each. and like mark was noting above its much easier to season your drivers quickly by just playing with them. but to season a midrange, especially in premium plastic can take AGES if not augmented with a bit of unnatural wear.

 

[Fightingthetide1]

jubuttibb's last comment is true: " A beaten in overstable disc is often more reliable for understable duties than a disc that starts out understable." I have noticed this before and wondered why it is true. I think because a broken in disc doesn't change stability that much at slower speeds. A Crush (overstable driver) is still a Crush even once it is broken in until you throw it hard. Since you practice with a disc for a long time, maybe years, to break it in, you learn that disc very well at different speeds and in different conditions. So if you need to fight a headwind and make a shot go straight, that seasoned Crush will battle the wind initially before it ends up flattening out as you hope it will. A new but straight flying driver may get turned right out of your hand and never have a chance to finish well.

I have a flat 175 P PD that is lightly seasoned. On 350' of power, it has some turn before fading hard. I've thrown it into a headwind and it flipped up from a slight hyzer. Once it got to flat, it would hold a very slow and subtle right turn. Where it really surprised me was at the end of the flight where it would keep turning right while staying flat, never really fading.

From what was said above, it sounds like you guys are saying a wind-fighting disc, like a PD, even if worn-in, will still fight wind well even after flipping up to flat. Did I understand that right? Because in my experience, my beat P PD's are an exception to this.

And I cant really think of a shot where you would need to hyzerflip a disc into a headwind...unless you have a tiny gap that you are worried about hitting.

 

[Fightingthetide1]

Also, here's a question - do discs that are purposely beat-in fly differently than a disc that is seasoned over time? I have another flat 175 P PD that I wanted to turn understable quickly, so I introduced it to a brick wall for a few minutes. It sure is flippy now! But one thing I noticed is that he LSS is still there. Given enough hyzer, it will flip to flat and still fade hard. I was expecting it to run flat for longer, fading much later.

 

[jubuttib]

From what was said above, it sounds like you guys are saying a wind-fighting disc, like a PD, even if worn-in, will still fight wind well even after flipping up to flat. Did I understand that right? Because in my experience, my beat P PD's are an exception to this.

Kinda sorta yes and partly no. If I were to compare my beat in S-PD to a disc that in calm conditions flew very similarly, in a headwind the PD would have the edge. But a beat to understable disc is still an understable disc. And I wouldn't call P-PD's wind fighting discs, not even all S-PD's.

Throwing into a headwind is basically equal to just throwing harder/faster with the same amount of spin. If you can get a disc to turn with your normal throw, it's going to turn more in a headwind.

And about the "beat in overstable disc more reliable than a naturally understable disc": I'm sure what Mark said holds true for many discs, but there are plenty of exceptions too. Like for instance the JOKERi. It's an overstable putter, having a nice fade when it slows down. When it beats in it loses that fade, but still hangs on to the high speed stability. It's essentially dependent on the mold in question.

And I think there are at least two reasons why beat in overstable discs are often more reliable (in the turn and burn sense) than naturally understable discs (pure speculation ahead): 1. You've had plenty of time to get to know them as they beat in and they're familiar to you. A new understable disc doesn't have this, and even if you know the mold, small inconsistencies can make different individuals fly differently. 2. An understable disc is designed to turn, it's in it's nature. It's more likely that it'll suddenly turn more than expected than less than expected. An overstable disc was designed to resist just that, and it's taken a lot of work to even get it to turn at all. It's more likely to turn less than expected, since that's in it's nature.

 

[jubuttib]

Also, here's a question - do discs that are purposely beat-in fly differently than a disc that is seasoned over time? I have another flat 175 P PD that I wanted to turn understable quickly, so I introduced it to a brick wall for a few minutes. It sure is flippy now! But one thing I noticed is that he LSS is still there. Given enough hyzer, it will flip to flat and still fade hard. I was expecting it to run flat for longer, fading much later.

I haven't tested, so I can't really say. It sounds plausible that a disc beaten in gradually and evenly through natural means would fly differently from a disc beaten in quickly and unevenly.

Are both of your P-PD's made from the same type of Pro? My stiff and shiny P-PD's definitely season differently from my gummy, matte P-PD's.

 

[JR]

PDs even with the same plastic blends vary in flight characteristics.

 

[jubuttib]

PDs even with the same plastic blends vary in flight characteristics.

True, but wear characteristics have thus far been fairly similar.

 

[Frank Delicious]

I think a disc that is purposefully beaten in will fly a bit different than a disc that is beaten in slowly. But I think a more important factor when trying to throw a quickly/purposefully beaten in disc is that you don't know that disc as well. I have an OLF that's been in the bag for 3 years, it is flippy as hell but I know that disc inside and out. I know what angle I need to release it on to get certain flight shapes, I know the arm speed and the snap I need for that disc. If I go buy an MOLF to replace it and slam it into a tree 5 times, it might be able to fly like my beat SOLF but I don't know it as well. I don't know exactly what angle to throw it at to get it to flip or what arm speed I need to get it to turn late.

 

[Vegan Ray]

You can't predict the behavior of a disc that is beaten brutally for a short time as soon as you acquire it. On the other hand, a disc that you consistently beat day after day after day over the course of years you can rely on to do whatever you ask it to with no resistance.











Just like a ho.

 

[dehaas]

You can't predict the behavior of a disc that is beaten brutally for a short time as soon as you acquire it. On the other hand, a disc that you consistently beat day after day after day over the course of years you can rely on to do whatever you ask it to with no resistance.











Just like a ho.

this right here is gold, on two completely unrelated levels.

 

[Fightingthetide1]

Also, here's a question - do discs that are purposely beat-in fly differently than a disc that is seasoned over time? I have another flat 175 P PD that I wanted to turn understable quickly, so I introduced it to a brick wall for a few minutes. It sure is flippy now! But one thing I noticed is that he LSS is still there. Given enough hyzer, it will flip to flat and still fade hard. I was expecting it to run flat for longer, fading much later.

I haven't tested, so I can't really say. It sounds plausible that a disc beaten in gradually and evenly through natural means would fly differently from a disc beaten in quickly and unevenly.

Are both of your P-PD's made from the same type of Pro? My stiff and shiny P-PD's definitely season differently from my gummy, matte P-PD's.

Both are shiny. In fact, all three are shiny...but the third is hiding deep in a bush somewhere waiting for me to go find it. Thankfully it's far from the course, so I doubt anyone is looking for it Annyyyyway, back to the OP - It makes sense that a purposefully beat-in disc would be harder to manage than a seasoned disc. My question still is whether a manually-beat disc would retain LSS more than a time-seasoned disc. Anyone know? My manually-thrashed P PD still has some strong LSS, which is why I am wondering.

 

[Guurn]

This dovetails into something that I was wondering about this week. I have a bunch of discs in all plastics and states of wear that I haven't thrown for a long time. I remember last year pulling out an old dx Python and using it for a month. I noticed that the plastic was much stiffer and slicker than I remembered it. Yesterday I out with a buddy and lent him a Star Orc I bought a year or 2 ago. I haven't bought much Star plastic in a while since I have been getting killed by its slipperyness (is that a word?) when wet or even damp. The one I gave him felt softer than I remembered it.

Do plastics change much over time, some getting softer and some stiffer? If Star plastic is going to get softer and gummier over time I may buy a few to store.

 

[InvaderMirO]

This dovetails into something that I was wondering about this week. I have a bunch of discs in all plastics and states of wear that I haven't thrown for a long time. I remember last year pulling out an old dx Python and using it for a month. I noticed that the plastic was much stiffer and slicker than I remembered it. Yesterday I out with a buddy and lent him a Star Orc I bought a year or 2 ago. I haven't bought much Star plastic in a while since I have been getting killed by its slipperyness (is that a word?) when wet or even damp. The one I gave him felt softer than I remembered it.

Do plastics change much over time, some getting softer and some stiffer? If Star plastic is going to get softer and gummier over time I may buy a few to store.

i cant apply this much to discs as i have only played for 2 years and its hard to remember what my first discs were like compared to now. most now are just beaten to hell.

but i have played roller hockey for years and the wheels are made out of a somewhat disclike plastic.

roller hockey wheels over time will become more stiff as they lose the bit of moisture stored in the plastic from when it was molded, also leaving wheels in harsh conditions will speed this process up. leaving it in a damp hockey bag will soften the wheels a bit while leaving them out in the sun will obviously harden and dry them out.
now this is not an exact science but i would say its easily noticed as wheels that once used to be very sticky will now slide across the floor and "wear" much differently. soft wheels will "shred" from sliding and wear unevenly, where as hard wheels will "chunk" and just lose bits and chunks from impacts.

i would say they might feel different over time due to aging, but most of it is likely related to exposure. i have an all black Lat64 Flow that is stiff as a board when pulled outta a bag thats been sitting in my cold trunk all night. but you let that same black flow sit in the sun for a few minutes while you walk to it from the teepad and it is always WAY more flexable after its warmed up a bit by the sun.