AnhyzerTV Rules Discussions

[brutalbrutus]

They are going to be doing rules discussions on their show this year and I will be updating this thread when they have an interesting topic...



This episodes discussion is Rule 807: Completing the Hole

Starts around 13:40

What I want to talk about today is their discussion on 807: B which starts around the 17:00 mark.

Do you have to actually release the disc prior to it "entering over the top of the tray" meaning you cant just hold the disc in your hand, place it in the tray/chains and then let it go? Then you grab it again to pull it out.


From the way the rule is written...

B: In order to complete a hole with a basket target, the thrower must release the disc and it must enter the target above the top of the tray and below the bottom of the chain support, and come to rest supported by the target.

I think it is illegal and you have to actually release the disc prior to it "entering the target"

 

[cheesethin]

807.B doesn't describe a sequence of events that have to happen in order. It just lists the criteria that have to happen at some point. It says release AND enter, not release THEN enter, or release BEFORE entering.

And QA-COM-1 supports this.

QA-COM-1: If I have a drop-in, do I need to throw the disc in, or can I just place it in the tray and let go?

You can place it in the tray, but you must release it and let it come to rest before retrieving it. A release is a required part of a throw, so merely touching the chains or the tray with your putter is not a throw and does not complete the hole.

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[Flush]

You mean you think pdga meant it to be illegal, and it's not very well clarified? Or opposite, pdga don't think that is really illegal and the text is not clarifying that?

In my personal oppinion, I don't think it's illegal and I don't think it should be illegal to do it the way Ricky did it (assuming he let go of the disc, which I think he did)

I wouldn't call it anyways, there's no advantage gained by doing it that way.

 

[brutalbrutus]

I always forget to check the Q&A

 

[cheesethin]

I always forget to check the Q&A

Whenever rule questions come up on the FB group, I find I am often simply posting the relevant Q&A. The RC have done a good job collating all the useful clarifications.

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[Steve West]

...I wouldn't call it anyways, there's no advantage gained by doing it that way.

...I wouldn't call it anyways, there's no advantage gained by doing it that way.

There doesn't need to be an advantage to call it. Though that seems to be a common misconception. It's your job as a player "to call a violation when one has clearly occurred." Nothing about when the player has gained an advantage.

Now, if a player slaps the chains or doesn't release the disc, there is no immediate penalty. The player is just not done with the hole because they did not make a throw. However, if they then go on to the next hole they face a two throw misplay penalty (over the score they thought they would get) for failing to complete a hole. And that could be imposed later after someone else found out they didn't complete the hole.

If you make the "call" immediately, you would merely be pointing out that the player did not make a throw and they are not done with the hole. (No rule has actually been broken yet, so it's not even a real call.) They would only need to drop it in to avoid a penalty.

By not making the "call", you could be costing the player two penalty throws.

 

[Jay Dub]

Who decides when a player has an advantage or not? Nothing but the rules should decide that.

Also, touching the basket with your disc in your hand is a stance violation if the part of the basket you touch is in front of your lie. Which it is more than 90% of the time.

 

[Flush]

There doesn't need to be an advantage to call it. Though that seems to be a common misconception. It's your job as a player "to call a violation when one has clearly occurred." Nothing about when the player has gained an advantage.

Now, if a player slaps the chains or doesn't release the disc, there is no immediate penalty. The player is just not done with the hole because they did not make a throw. However, if they then go on to the next hole they face a two throw misplay penalty (over the score they thought they would get) for failing to complete a hole. And that could be imposed later after someone else found out they didn't complete the hole.

If you make the "call" immediately, you would merely be pointing out that the player did not make a throw and they are not done with the hole. (No rule has actually been broken yet, so it's not even a real call.) They would only need to drop it in to avoid a penalty.

By not making the "call", you could be costing the player two penalty throws.

I might not have made my self totally clear here. I don't see what Ricky did in the clip as a violation (and as someone pointed out, it's not) according to the pdga rules. So no call.

If he had slapped the disc in the chains that's something else in my opinion.

 

[Steve West]

I might not have made my self totally clear here. I don't see what Ricky did in the clip as a violation (and as someone pointed out, it's not) according to the pdga rules. So no call.

If he had slapped the disc in the chains that's something else in my opinion.

Thanks for the clarification. I took "anyway" to mean if he hypothetically had not released the disc.

 

[cheesethin]

...

Also, touching the basket with your disc in your hand is a stance violation if the part of the basket you touch is in front of your lie. Which it is more than 90% of the time.

No it's not.

Your hand can hold the disc, and at the same time the disc can be touching the basket.

A stance violation only occurs at the point of release.

Your hand is both a supporting point AND it is the release point for the throw. If you are still holding the disc you haven't thrown it yet - so no violation. And if you have released the disc you don't have a supporting point in front of the lie - no violation.

This is a special case - with only your hand holding the disc and the disc touching the basket...you can't simultaneously have a supporting point in front of the lie, and have thrown the disc.

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[Jay Dub]

If the lie has been marked by a marker disc, then when the disc is released, the player must:

Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the lie; and,
Have no supporting point closer to the target than the rear edge of the marker disc; and,
Have all supporting points in-bounds.

 

[cheesethin]

If the lie has been marked by a marker disc, then when the disc is released, the player must:



Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the lie; and,

Have no supporting point closer to the target than the rear edge of the marker disc; and,

Have all supporting points in-bounds.

That doesn't contradict what I said. [emoji16]

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[JC17393]

If the lie has been marked by a marker disc, then when the disc is released, the player must:

Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the lie; and,
Have no supporting point closer to the target than the rear edge of the marker disc; and,
Have all supporting points in-bounds.

Fixed the bolded to highlight what's most important here.

If you haven't released the disc yet, it doesn't matter where your supporting points are. In fact, until you release the disc, there's no such thing as supporting points according to the rules.

802.04
B. ...A supporting point is any part of the player's body that is, at the time of release, in contact with the playing surface or any other object that provides support.​

 

[Jay Dub]

Fixed the bolded to highlight what's most important here.

If you haven't released the disc yet, it doesn't matter where your supporting points are. In fact, until you release the disc, there's no such thing as supporting points according to the rules.

802.04
B. ...A supporting point is any part of the player's body that is, at the time of release, in contact with the playing surface or any other object that provides support.​

It's providing support.
I always see pros on video hang the disc over the basket and drop it in, they don't touch metal with their disc, which is correct.

 

[cheesethin]

It's providing support.

But not "when the disc is released" - this is the critical bit.

I always see pros on video hang the disc over the basket and drop it in, they don't touch metal with their disc, which is correct.

I have seen many pros lay the disc in and touch metal. But don't take my word for it...

QA-COM-1: If I have a drop-in, do I need to throw the disc in, or can I just place it in the tray and let go?

You can place it in the tray, but you must release it and let it come to rest before retrieving it. A release is a required part of a throw, so merely touching the chains or the tray with your putter is not a throw and does not complete the hole.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

 

[Flush]

Thanks for the clarification. I took "anyway" to mean if he hypothetically had not released the disc.

Yeah, I could see why when i re-read my post

 

[JC17393]

It's providing support.
I always see pros on video hang the disc over the basket and drop it in, they don't touch metal with their disc, which is correct.

It doesn't matter if it's providing support because it is prior to release. At the moment of release, there is no contact between the hand and the disc, therefore it's not providing support at the time of release, which is all that matters.

Those pros are legal doing what you describe, of course, but doing it that way is not required for a legal hole-out.