Cole Redalen vs Paul McBeth - Slingshot

[podskiii]

Link to slingshot analysis

I wonder if there is something true regarding Slingshot analysis?

Earlier this year I saw a video about ER (External Rotation) and IR (Internal Rotation) in a baseball video. It was from the baseball video that I understood, that I can never mimic a player like Paul McBeth as he is very IR dominant.

Players that I know is ER dominant is for example: Ricky Wysocki, Matt Orum, GG and Gavin Rathbun
Players I know that is very IR dominant: Paul McBeth, Kevin Jones

I don't know how relevant this ER and IR regarding Slingshot analysis, but Cole Redalen throws a mile with little effort.

 

[Sheep]

The problem with Trent is that he's not dumb, but he's also clueless at the same time.

It's hard to trust anything that he says as an analysis, because he doesn't even fully understand how Paul throws when he talks about it.

His content is to painful for me to even watch for a laugh anymore.

The guy knows how to be athletic, he understands how to use the body in certain ways. But "rotate fast" is not how to throw far.
And he says he mimics paul in how he throws, and.. it's not anything close.

 

[gwsmallwood]

The problem with Trent is that he's not dumb, but he's also clueless at the same time.

It's hard to trust anything that he says as an analysis, because he doesn't even fully understand how Paul throws when he talks about it.

His content is to painful for me to even watch for a laugh anymore.

The guy knows how to be athletic, he understands how to use the body in certain ways. But "rotate fast" is not how to throw far.
And he says he mimics paul in how he throws, and.. it's not anything close.

I have two major problems with him. First is the squish the bug thing. I played baseball for 10 years, so I'm confident that move robs power. I also asked him in the comments section to comment on that, and his answer was basically "It's not squishing the bug because I say it's not."

My second problem with him is exactly what you mentioned. He's open about the fact that he doesn't understand body mechanics, but claims that this method he's using is what most pros do and what all of us should be using, but he can't explain why, other than "It's more athletic", "It's a sport, so be an athlete." That's why when he starts throwing around terms like Internal and External rotation, it's hard to take him seriously.

To the best of my knowledge, nobody has done more research into the proper body mechanics for a throw than Dave Feldberg. He even created a college course out of his research. If this technique was the way everyone should be doing it, then I suspect Dave would have figured that out long ago.

 

[HB2017]

Cole Redalen throws a mile with little effort.

Do not be fooled, he's putting plenty of effort in, there's no way to throw it far with "low" effort. It looks effortless because his swing is efficient and he's long-limbed. It's the same thing as ball golfers hitting drives that carry 320+ yards. They are swinging hard (with control) and, through efficient movement, getting the most out of the significant effort they are applying.

If you are naturally ER or IR dominant then just stick with whichever one comes naturally. IMO there is no benefit to thinking about it beyond that unless you can clearly identify a link between IR/ER and whatever problem you are trying to fix.

I have no thoughts on Slingshot other than his approach to coaching strikes me as very one-size-fits-all and seems to be based on a shallow understanding of what an elite disc golfer's body actually does during the throw.

 

[Sheep]

I have two major problems with him. First is the squish the bug thing. I played baseball for 10 years, so I'm confident that move robs power. I also asked him in the comments section to comment on that, and his answer was basically "It's not squishing the bug because I say it's not."

My second problem with him is exactly what you mentioned. He's open about the fact that he doesn't understand body mechanics, but claims that this method he's using is what most pros do and what all of us should be using, but he can't explain why, other than "It's more athletic", "It's a sport, so be an athlete." That's why when he starts throwing around terms like Internal and External rotation, it's hard to take him seriously.

To the best of my knowledge, nobody has done more research into the proper body mechanics for a throw than Dave Feldberg. He even created a college course out of his research. If this technique was the way everyone should be doing it, then I suspect Dave would have figured that out long ago.

Well, Trent does understand and teach to be athletic, that is the biggest plus he puts out there.
He constantly talks about maintaining athletic positions, and being in shape and making sure you have range of motion. These are all super big key factors to being good.

I teach a LOT of Feldberg stuff. I'd love to spend time talking with the guy, but... yeah, that aint gonna happen, but a lot of the ways i teach things are Feldberg based. He spent tons of time researching, and nobody knows who he is anymore, which is sad.
Or they dismiss the dude cause he's old.

He was a really well rounded golfer and has won distance competitions.
I... I duno.
You can listen to a top level pro who's good at playing and has no clue how to actually teach, or a guy like feldberg who's been around forever, tried to improve on things and really knows his stuff.

 

[Sheep]

Do not be fooled, he's putting plenty of effort in, there's no way to throw it far with "low" effort. It looks effortless because his swing is efficient and he's long-limbed. It's the same thing as ball golfers hitting drives that carry 320+ yards. They are swinging hard (with control) and, through efficient movement, getting the most out of the significant effort they are applying.

If you are naturally ER or IR dominant then just stick with whichever one comes naturally. IMO there is no benefit to thinking about it beyond that unless you can clearly identify a link between IR/ER and whatever problem you are trying to fix.

I have no thoughts on Slingshot other than his approach to coaching strikes me as very one-size-fits-all and seems to be based on a shallow understanding of what an elite disc golfer's body actually does during the throw.

SNAKE OIL.
That's his coaching style. hahaha.


As for the levers and effort thing>
Big levers = lots of leverage.

Kinetic chain is what is important to reference.

We are using our body from the brace to the tip of our throwing fingers to create an efficient kinetic chain that explodes as it drives.

What people should be impressed with is dwarfs like Kevin Jones and Emmerson Keith who throw really really good and far with such small levers. Because they have to truly have a lot more mechanics better to get that distance vs someone with big long levers who just naturally gets more power, cause... it's how leverage works.

The problem with long levers though is that it is FAR harder to be consistent over time because its harder to hold a 6 foot 2x4 straight out from you with your arm extended than a 2 foot 2x4.
Why?
Leverage again.
The body has to control this massive lever which will make it really hard, vs a short stable lever.

So, you're more likely to be sloppy with longer levers despite having more natural power.

 

[Sard0nyx]

Can we at least talk about the differences in Cole's form vs Paul's? Slingshot may be wrong about a lot of things, but the differences he points out are very real. Cole does let his back foot leak backwards but somehow is still able to coil enough to throw monster drives.

 

[HB2017]

Can we at least talk about the differences in Cole's form vs Paul's? Slingshot may be wrong about a lot of things, but the differences he points out are very real. Cole does let his back foot leak backwards but somehow is still able to coil enough to throw monster drives.

I don't think the trail leg by itself is much of a power source in a full throw with a run-up/X-step, so Cole's trail leg "leak" probably isn't taking anything away from his power. From what I've read and watched to this point, the trail leg is transferring the body's momentum (generated in run-up) to the plant leg. A standstill throw is a different story, you have to use the trail leg to generate momentum since there is no run-up; for this reason baseball pitching mechanics are more transferable to standstills.

 

[sidewinder22]

Cole is definitely very ER dominant, can see he even walks a bit duck footed. He still manages to evert the rear foot as it leaves the ground, so I think his rear foot angle is still within his range although it does look a bit extreme.

The pics of Paul are from 2021 with a slightly different camera angle making it appear a little more different, the pics Cole and Rick are from 2023 and they end up looking quite similar. Their rear legs are all just hanging in their neutral/natural position.

 

[blayed]

The ER/IR discussion comes up from time to time. It seems as though a lot of people here/players are ER dominant.

What about those of us who are IR dominant? I am extremely pigeon toed and pretty IR dominant. What are some of the things that I need to watch out for in a backhand form?

One thing that comes to mind as an example is that the "ballerina" pose during the cross step is damn near impossible for me to do naturally since my feet dont like to be pointed out.

 

[sidewinder22]

The ER/IR discussion comes up from time to time. It seems as though a lot of people here/players are ER dominant.

What about those of us who are IR dominant? I am extremely pigeon toed and pretty IR dominant. What are some of the things that I need to watch out for in a backhand form?

One thing that comes to mind as an example is that the "ballerina" pose during the cross step is damn near impossible for me to do naturally since my feet dont like to be pointed out.

You want to look more like KJUSA.

 

[Sheep]

The ER/IR discussion comes up from time to time. It seems as though a lot of people here/players are ER dominant.

What about those of us who are IR dominant? I am extremely pigeon toed and pretty IR dominant. What are some of the things that I need to watch out for in a backhand form?

One thing that comes to mind as an example is that the "ballerina" pose during the cross step is damn near impossible for me to do naturally since my feet dont like to be pointed out.

You know, I think brodie is IR dominate.

Which explains why his rear foot is really weird, and his plant has always been weird.

 

[blayed]

You know, I think brodie is IR dominate.

Which explains why his rear foot is really weird, and his plant has always been weird.

Brodie is extremely ER dominant you can see he walks very duck footed. But I think he's so ER dominant that it explains the weirdness you're talking about

 

[Skervoy]

Do not be fooled, he's putting plenty of effort in, there's no way to throw it far with "low" effort. It looks effortless because his swing is efficient and he's long-limbed. It's the same thing as ball golfers hitting drives that carry 320+ yards. They are swinging hard (with control) and, through efficient movement, getting the most out of the significant effort they are applying.

If you are naturally ER or IR dominant then just stick with whichever one comes naturally. IMO there is no benefit to thinking about it beyond that unless you can clearly identify a link between IR/ER and whatever problem you are trying to fix.

I have no thoughts on Slingshot other than his approach to coaching strikes me as very one-size-fits-all and seems to be based on a shallow understanding of what an elite disc golfer's body actually does during the throw.

Yeah I would say that you cant have credentials as really good coach if you havent either played at the top level or coached people to/on the highest level. And to add to that a top pro does not automatically know exactly what they are doing, they mostly just do what is ingrained.

 

[Sheep]

Brodie is extremely ER dominant you can see he walks very duck footed. But I think he's so ER dominant that it explains the weirdness you're talking about

I get them so confused.

ER, IR.

It doesn't make much sense in my brain which is which.

All I know is people started talking about serving soup while taking about disc golf, then it was serving pizza and..

I just .. cant even.

..

Wait, would ya'll respect me more if I actually used my vocabulary better and threw in weird 20 dollar words to sound smarter all the time?

I digress.

(that last part is a joke) (Though, wrist supponation... Go jerk off a bit and come back.)

But yeah, I get them messed up.
I'm glad we use the ER/IR dominate thing, because its actually important information.
Just my brain no no no no no wanna remember.

 

[Sheep]

Yeah I would say that you cant have credentials as really good coach if you havent either played at the top level or coached people to/on the highest level. And to add to that a top pro does not automatically know exactly what they are doing, they mostly just do what is ingrained.

The problem with coaching is quite blaringly obvious. Right now.

/me grabs soap box.

We are at an age of Coaching where a lot of people think they know what they are doing because they have youtube followers. Coaching prowess is also measured by subscribers of course, so you only know things if you have subscribers. Everyone else is just an idiot.

I'll roll that back.

Were at an age where everyone thinks they can coach disc golf. They can't. You can stand on video and bring your best sales pitch like slinky, or pretend your an expert like josh, whatever you want to do. youtube lets you do it. Then your sub count must reflect your "ability" to coach right?

Now, Everyone that comes to the table on coaching usually brings at least 1 thing with them. Being a better way to explain one little thing, or a new format to teach with (josh). Slinky even brings the "you must be athletic" which is so true. You don't have to be an athlete, but you must throw with an athletic posture. And if you want power, you gotta use fast twitch muscles. Not everyone can easily do that.

So, one way we measure coaching though is YT subscribers. So, Since I have like.. 350 subs, I'm a crappy coach compared to Josh, though I've done more form checks than him, and taught far more people to throw over 400 feet than him. But, I'm a crappy coach cause I don't have any subscribers and I don't get shout outs by other "big coaches."

Part 2 of measuring coaches is, did they play on tour.
There are a lot of people out there who are not interested in listening to you coach unless you've competed at golf at a very high level. This is the absolute dumbest idea ever, but its actually how most of the community feels about coaching as well as top tier players.
Tiger woods isn't getting lessons from Jack Nicolaus, he's got 5 guys coaching him that you have never heard of before, or maybe 1 guy that played on tour 20 years ago but never got really good. These guy's jobs are to study, learn and study, and learn and then teach.

That's what I'm trying to sit here and do and seabass as well. Were not top tier competitors. We just got big brains.
I'm physically incapable of competing at a high level. So, that' just automatically drops me from the ticket of coaches because I haven't played on tour?

Then we look at guys like Uli trying to capitalize on it. And its awful. He's a good dude. But WTF are you doing? And people gonna flock to him for teaching, cause Uli has a good personality and he was a pro golfer!
While one of his main teaching advertisements shows him teaching everyone 'squish the bug'... like the fuck?

I'm going to have the opportunity to play with Luke most of the winter, a touring pro, and I am going to ask him about coaching and touring players and what they actually need.
Because touring players DO need coaching, but ... I've never seen a larger set of egotistical asshole athletes in my life.
Even brodie turned into one in a sense. He went from "we need real caddies" to the typical disc golf "Just carry my bag, you dont know my game."
The effort that Robby put in was a bit more of a friendship sorta thing and not a fair representation of what a caddy SHOULD be doing.

Which is also really sad, because brodie has that Pro Am experience, but he also understands the money isn't there yet. And pro players aint going to want to share 25% with their caddy yet on 6k.
But then, paul wins. ....He can hand you the 6k, they paid him 10 mill.



Coaching needs to be given way better optics in disc golf than it is.
Because the current model is "Youtube subscribers" or "pro/former golfer"
Everyone else is "yeah whatever."

And I"m over here giggling at everyone who doesn't want to do podcasts with me, or talk shop, or any of these other things cause I have no subscribers, and I am just doing lessons in person.
Nobody online gets to see it.
I'm actually helping people do better vs giving out form reviews to paying members and listening to them bitch in discord chats about how its not really helping them as much as they feel it should. (Had an in person lesson guy tell me about paying for form reviews and it not doing anything as well)



Players on tour not accepting any level of coaching unless its from very specific people doesn't set a good example, or the fact they dont use any at all.
It's almost impossible to build a coaching catalog as well. And all we have is youtube subs for reputation?

I've got 4 students over 600 feet.
So, I mean? Where is my comeupins?
It's not going to happen.
So I just talk about it in the largest light that I can online and listen to people say dumb shit like "oh you complain to much."

OH my bad bro, are you offended by the truth of the matter? Reality sucks, I'm just pointing it out to everyone. It's not a crybaby story, it's just based off personal experience.
Nobody gives a shit about some guy on the internet unless you have youtube subs or a viral video.

Which, cool. Fine.
Doesn't mean I cannot criticize someone elses stupidity to work with others.

It will get better. But it shoudln't be based off your youtube subscribers as a "worthy to work with" coach.

So, it all comes down to my complaint about coaches not willing to talk shop with each other in the end.
And.. I mean, Seabass talks to me.
jaani did, but he deleted like all his socials. so.
And that's it.
Nobody else wants to talk, cept people in here. I'm not sure how many of you are just into theory, or actualyl wanna coach though.

 

[pierogie27]

So, one way we measure coaching though is YT subscribers. So, Since I have like.. 350 subs, I'm a crappy coach compared to Josh, though I've done more form checks than him, and taught far more people to throw over 400 feet than him. But, I'm a crappy coach cause I don't have any subscribers and I don't get shout outs by other "big coaches."

What's the name of your YT channel? Do you have any documented instances of teaching people to throw over 400?

 

[HB2017]

If you want to be a bigger presence online and receive more of the recognition that's being unfairly withheld from you, then you need to start cranking out the content. Bitch about it all you want but novice players are going to Youtube for instruction and if you aren't making content regularly and aggressively promoting it, you will be invisible to them. The famous ball golf coaches largely achieved success through networking and self-promotion, not deep knowledge of the golf swing. Disc golf won't be any different.

 

[Sewer bill]

I think there's coaching tiers with various applicability to players that quickly diminishes the further up the skill ladder you go simply because there's drastically less people interested in what's needed to push from 400-500 or 500-600. The real meat is teaching how to go from 150 to 300 quickly in easy to understand techniques.

That's not saying there isn't a place or a need for highly analytical form interpretation but it really only serves other coaches OR the people who are capable AND who are seeking that specific information.

To the broader disc golf demographic the credibility of that information also seems tied to whether that coach can actually throw well and that's just the way it goes even if it is wrong.

Don't be bummed if you're an awesome coach with great interpretation of form to help people push new limits just be mindful that for every one guy grinding hard and seeking advice to go from 450 to 550 there's 10 thousand fat middle aged guys trying to go from 200 to 300 without hurting their shoulder who don't want to lose weight or stretch everyday and become flexible or learn balance or do field work they want a "do this with your arm put your feet here" and boom now disc fly far for gronk solution.

 

[Sard0nyx]

I think there's coaching tiers with various applicability to players that quickly diminishes the further up the skill ladder you go simply because there's drastically less people interested in what's needed to push from 400-500 or 500-600. The real meat is teaching how to go from 150 to 300 quickly in easy to understand techniques.

That's not saying there isn't a place or a need for highly analytical form interpretation but it really only serves other coaches OR the people who are capable AND who are seeking that specific information.

To the broader disc golf demographic the credibility of that information also seems tied to whether that coach can actually throw well and that's just the way it goes even if it is wrong.

Don't be bummed if you're an awesome coach with great interpretation of form to help people push new limits just be mindful that for every one guy grinding hard and seeking advice to go from 450 to 550 there's 10 thousand fat middle aged guys trying to go from 200 to 300 without hurting their shoulder who don't want to lose weight or stretch everyday and become flexible or learn balance or do field work they want a "do this with your arm put your feet here" and boom now disc fly far for gronk solution.

I think the real issue is that there really isn't any magic to get from 150-300. You don't need to be a good coach to get someone to throw those distances. Most people can learn how to throw 300 with form that will never get in the realm of 400. A lot of YouTube coaching is tailored towards those. And it's very easy to make money at this range.

Getting people into 450-500+ range is where real coaching shows up. You need to have a good understanding of throw mechanics and disc golf in order to teach those distances. And it seems that even now, the success rate of coaching to those levels is really low. Partly because of disagreements about technique as well as a lack of developed coaching methods that work and apply to a wider range of people.