DeBunking Myths - Keeping the Head Down or Still or Back

[sidewinder22]

McBeth's nose moves forward in every single frame and actually moves fastest and rises during the throw.

You can use the ,< and .> buttons to view frame by frame:


Link to bigger pic:
https://i.imgur.com/jHuZLSS.png

 

[sidewinder22]

Great lesson here from Jimmy Ballard teacher of the decade:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BUOAZrbMGs&t=6m

 

[sidewinder22]

"Why did Nicklaus say you used to hold his hair to get him to keep his head still? Because we have just been talking golf for a couple hours now and you have not mentioned any thing of the sorts, in fact you and Sam teach the same way, that it's impossible to have a great golf swing and keep the head still."
http://www.stevewozeniak.com/2008/04/setting-the-record-straight-for-jack-grouts-sake/

 

[sidewinder22]

Turn your head to make the whip bigger:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLo97jXn5Wo&t=12m7s

 

[Smigles]

I remember reading that Paul claims that he can see the basekt during the entire throw, admittably from the corner of the eye during the reachback.

I can not see how this would be physically possible in pictures 3, 4 and 5 from your series in post 1.

 

[BeRReGoN]

Paul is surely one that look very little time away from the target, like he's turning his head only a little because his right shoulder force him too. On upshots he doesn't even look away: https://youtu.be/V3LCPgvflo8?t=135

 

[sidewinder22]

Head moves with disc:

 

[R-Ogre]

Head moves with disc:

Man what a great example of using the angle of the shoulders to set the hyzer angle. Also, holy crap, that's what I call a HYZER release.

 

[NoseDownKing]

Should we aim to look at the basket for as long as possible?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

 

[Smigles]

Paul is surely one that look very little time away from the target, like he's turning his head only a little because his right shoulder force him too. On upshots he doesn't even look away: https://youtu.be/V3LCPgvflo8?t=135

He also rotates on his toes for upshots.

Not full power shots are something completely different from full power shots.

 

[sidewinder22]

Should we aim to look at the basket for as long as possible?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Not at the basket, but look forward to the apex of your desired flight line. Head should turn away last for distance to allow the shoulders to turn further back.

 

[Disc Golf Doctor]

I think some of this comes from a misunderstanding of what people mean when they say to keep the head down. What is usually meant is to not allow the head to come up and around prematurely, not to initiate movement from the top down. Having the head come up and around from the beginning will prematurely rotate the upper body. Paul does that nicely in the video and screenshots, it isn't his head rotating or coming up, it is his body turning and his head following.\
Again, what is normally meant by someone saying that isn't to actively keep the head back or down. Anyone who has played golf has seen someone pick up their head prematurely opening their shoulders causing a high slice or a topped ball. Same thing can happen in disc golf, someone turn their head actively in relation to there upper body causing rounding and pulling the disc to the right (for a RHBH).

 

[DiscFifty]

Should we aim to look at the basket for as long as possible?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

I can only speak for myself, but the closer I get to the basket, the more I keep my eye on the basket during the throw.

 

[sidewinder22]

I think some of this comes from a misunderstanding of what people mean when they say to keep the head down. What is usually meant is to not allow the head to come up and around prematurely, not to initiate movement from the top down. Having the head come up and around from the beginning will prematurely rotate the upper body. Paul does that nicely in the video and screenshots, it isn't his head rotating or coming up, it is his body turning and his head following.

Again, what is normally meant by someone saying that isn't to actively keep the head back or down. Anyone who has played golf has seen someone pick up their head prematurely opening their shoulders causing a high slice or a topped ball. Same thing can happen in disc golf, someone turn their head actively in relation to there upper body causing rounding and pulling the disc to the right (for a RHBH).

Is the problem that students are misinterpreting the advice that they are literally being given?

Or is the problem that the teachers are not effectively communicating the advice or just giving poor advice despite being well intentioned?

The problem with the advice of "keep the head down", is that it's not a problem with the head, and so when you tell someone to keep the head down, their focus or swing thought becomes on the head and disaster happens. The head is merely an indicator of what is happening with the rest of the body underneath the head. Turning the head relative to the chest physically can't cause rounding or griplock, as shown in my Group Up Not Head Down vid, and if anything actively turning the head to the target actually counter-rotates the chest away. Rounding is caused by the upper arm collapsing against the chest and over-rotating the lower body.

When someone is incorrectly "leading with their head", what is actually happening is either caused by an out of balance condition/weightshift issue, and/or the spine stands up early out of the shot or forward tilted swing plane from the hip, and the head is just going up along with the spine.

I don't think Paul can physically turn his head any further forward relative to his chest, his chin is basically on his front shoulder until release.

 

[Disc Golf Doctor]

look at frame 6, 7, 8, and 9. His head is mostly square with this shoulders. He could rotate his head a lot more to the right.

We both agree that the head is an indicator of what is happening elsewhere. It is meant that they shouldn't come up and out of the shot prematurely. If there head is coming up and around early it is due to incorrect form. Could the wording of "keep your head down" be worded differently, sure, but the idea still stands. I don't know of anyone who is suggesting people should actively prevent head movement, it isn't meant literally. We are constantly saying things in the English language that are not meant to be taken literally, but figuratively. When someone says keep your head down, there are trying to convey the idea of: 'don't let you head come up prematurely

 

[SonicGuy]

+1 for Sidewinder.

"Keep your head down" is probably the most destructive ball golf instruction. It takes the focus off the swing and puts it on an arbitrary movement unrelated to the swing. What people SHOULD be telling ball golfers is that often times raising your head can cause you to square your shoulders and swing down and across the ball. Of course it is completely possible to do this with your head down as well.

I like to call these "voodoo instructions". By keeping your head down, you are relying on pure voodoo to correct your actual form. Same with "follow through". A poor follow through is indicative of other problems. Just forcing the club into follow through is not going to create good form. Basically you are telling a golfer that the motion of the club AFTER impact will somehow go back in time and create good contact. Via voodoo.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

look at frame 6, 7, 8, and 9. His head is mostly square with this shoulders. He could rotate his head a lot more to the right.

We both agree that the head is an indicator of what is happening elsewhere. It is meant that they shouldn't come up and out of the shot prematurely. If there head is coming up and around early it is due to incorrect form. Could the wording of "keep your head down" be worded differently, sure, but the idea still stands. I don't know of anyone who is suggesting people should actively prevent head movement, it isn't meant literally. We are constantly saying things in the English language that are not meant to be taken literally, but figuratively. When someone says keep your head down, there are trying to convey the idea of: 'don't let you head come up prematurely

But the problem is, saying it any way puts too much focus on something that as SW said will screw up other parts of the body.

There are a lot of things that are indicators of good form or bad form but as sonic just mentioned you can't force these things. It doesn't make a good swing by forcing a proper feeling follow through.

Keeping your neck and shoulders relaxed is a much better thing to say and then when evaluating you can point to what may or may not be good or bad with the head.

I like to call these "voodoo instructions". By keeping your head down, you are relying on pure voodoo to correct your actual form. Same with "follow through". A poor follow through is indicative of other problems. Just forcing the club into follow through is not going to create good form. Basically you are telling a golfer that the motion of the club AFTER impact will somehow go back in time and create good contact. Via voodoo.

I don't really believe the saying those who can, do and those who can't teach but i think this is where that saying comes from. A lot of really great athletes at their given sports can't teach correctly because what they do and what they think they do are really not the same things. I think that and people mis-evaluating without much knowledge of bio-mechanics get some things really wrong.

I think the voodoo instructions are akin to what Bradly Walker has been trying to do recently in a way. The idea of working from the hit backwards makes a lot more sense. I know for me I will take a look at the most glaring problem and start moving backwards until I can find the root cause. Turns out to inevitably be too early reachback and having too much weight behind my rear foot early in the Xstep. Issues I keep thinking i've fixed...
Focusing on the end of the swing, or FORCING me to get push off my rear instep/toes of my back foot when my weight is clearly on the rear heal is not helping...

 

[sidewinder22]

look at frame 6, 7, 8, and 9. His head is mostly square with this shoulders. He could rotate his head a lot more to the right.

His head was already shifted and turned forward to the max/hit point leading the acceleration of the shoulders squaring up on the front leg to the hit point. If he kept turning his head more to the right past the hit point, then he wouldn't be able to watch to the disc at release and during follow thru like some people say you aren't supposed to do. :\

We both agree that the head is an indicator of what is happening elsewhere. It is meant that they shouldn't come up and out of the shot prematurely. If there head is coming up and around early it is due to incorrect form. Could the wording of "keep your head down" be worded differently, sure, but the idea still stands. I don't know of anyone who is suggesting people should actively prevent head movement, it isn't meant literally. We are constantly saying things in the English language that are not meant to be taken literally, but figuratively. When someone says keep your head down, there are trying to convey the idea of: 'don't let you head come up prematurely

Schusterick - saying to improve reachback and follow thru by keeping the head down the whole time? I'd say keeping the head down restricts the reachback and follow thru.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30cUNsWOYSI&t=4m53s

Feldberg - head still down and back with disc 70' away?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHy227OYGP0&t=21m46s

This guy is saying that Seppo is in that head down/back position at release.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqAOUX8Jyk8&t=10m50s

Mike Austin literally holding someone's head down/still:

 

[RFrance]

New AMG video on NOT keeping the head down.

 

[sidewinder22]