Request advice on bag

[hawgdriver]

I have a bag ready for 2022, hoping to maybe cash an MP40 or get a strong result along the way. I have some nagging questions and could use the advice of a seasoned vet though.

Here's the bag.

17 discs I know I can't part with

Envy - putting putter and main DG throw, I like the Eclipse plastic (neutralish)
Stego - ~200' governor, some neat lines, solid ground play (OOS)
Berg - a brick in between Stego and Envy with reliable characteristics (brick-ish; OS but doesn't precess like an OS disc)

Hex - FH/BH mid (neutral)
Tursas - for lines (US)

Teebird & Teebird3 - staple no-frills FW drivers out to about ~360+, the Teeb is lighter and seems to bomb, the Teeb3 bombs with slight anny but is otherwise just sturdy af on normal lines (stable)

Boatman - it's Teeb3's big brother with legs, and also a solid FH disc (stable)

Essence - standstill bomber, sometimes roller (US)

Draco - OS fairway, gotta have (put a Felon or Firebird in my hand, it's all about the same) (OS)

150g Bliz Destroyer - high trajectory hyzer lines at distance (stable-ish)

149g G* Shryke - HW roller, clifftop tailwind flex bomber (looking at you, 600' hole 21 at Bailey that you birdied) (UUS)

Halo Shryke - FH bomber with surprising and intuitive stability (stable)

Invictus - typically a FH option, but also BH, gusty HW safe out, can trust it on anny flex lines, beef disc (OS)

172g G* Shryke - when the stars align, it goes farther than the rest, but I've learned to avoid it with any HW more than about 8mph. I live in Denver and I've noticed they fly different in, e.g., CA or Iowa. I tend to stable up a tad for this slot when I travel. (flexy)

Halo Destroyer - BH max distance disc for HW bc G* Shryke will flip.

***

I'm trying to build not just a bag, but a set of skills that will produce results. Like you have, I've had scores of different discs in my bag. But I'm still at 1.5 years into this thing, and want to avoid going down the wrong road.

I feel that mastering one disc is a far superior approach to the game, than going wide, all else equal. Off the pad, on a generic DG hole I can't reach with an Envy I'll drive with a Teeb/Boat, Hex, Shryke (Halo FH, G* BH), then approach with Envy, and this is the pattern for most holes.

But there are about 7-10 discs I want to add back to the bag. Should I?

I want to be sure to have the types of shots I'll need at a random course. I know that sounds banal, but sometimes the answer isn't the special disc, it's just throwing the staple disc the right way. And sometimes it just doesn't matter, you are going to screw up the throw regardless of disc, and being punished is a real part of crap results.

Yeah, so here's the specific questions.

1. Should I add an OS putter or mid back to the bag? I used to throw a Pig, Harp, Tactic, Caiman, A3, etc., a *lot*. Quite often FH, just as often as BH. I have a Pyro that really wants back in the bag, it's such a high quality disc. When I went to an Envy, for some reason that stopped, and now it's almost all BH. One of the shots I would throw a lot with that OS putter was a medium hyzer. Now I tend to throw more direct lines. This issue I can't resolve and would like thoughts. It's not about the particular disc as much as devoting effort toward a skill type--with this disc I'd tend to trust and lean into FH shots. It really gets down to accuracy and touch, FH vs. BH, long-term.

2. Should I include a 'distance' OS fairway back in the bag? For me, this disc is either an FX-2 or PD. Both are about 10/4/0/3--go farther than you'd expect, but otherwise a lot like a Firebird in terms of inexorable finish. I just don't know--I'm not even sure what guides my shot selection when I pull it out except for variables of wind, distance, and line. I don't know if it's worth the reps on a distinct disc when maybe I could master the Draco, Invictus, or Boatman better, depending on which of those would be the next closest 'ideal' disc for the given shot.

3. Is there any point in trying to develop a novel skillset with an unusual disc like the Paradox? I guess this is disc-specific because of how I framed the question, but the ultimate issue is how many skills can a player reliably develop that will produce results in the crunch? I'm leaning away from it, but at the same time, it's a surprisingly compelling circle at lower speeds.

4. How many spares do you really need, and at what slots?

Well, that covers it. Thanks in advance for your guidance. xoxo

 

[hawgdriver]

edit - that's actually 16 discs. I miscounted because I had put one of my favorite discs back in the bag because it was just such a reliable disc, but I had benched it because it can't be replaced. But there it was, saying to me "I've always had your back bro." It's a factory second DD2, and ignore the name of the disc, it's a FH/BH promise-I'll-behave consummate disc. In iffy, hard-to-read, squirrely but not OP winds it always found its way home. In tight gaps it always found the window. I leaned into it so much that when I realized I couldn't get another one, I decided I should build a game that wasn't so fragile. I guess that's question #5: should I put a single 'high-confidence' disc that cannot be perfectly replaced in my bag?

 

[Horsman]

So I feel like when building a bag I tend to bags discs in 3's. I prefer mold minimalism and think that its a superior way to build a bag but I know its really no different than bagging a ton of different molds. Most of it comes down to archer over arrow. Getting back to bagging discs in 3's. My thought process is to carry 3 discs per speed category, 1 overstable, 1 stable(neutral) and 1 understable. Then I carry that line of thinking thru the rest of the bag. I carry at least 3 putters(speed 1-3), mids(speed 4-6), fairways(speed 7-8), tweeners(speed 9-10) and distance drivers(speed 11+). I say at least 3 because I will go as much as 6-7 discs per speed category and this just depends on how I feel. I dont build my bag around the course Im playing, my bag is set up so that I can go to any course and be successful. This would probably change if I was on tour but I think that building a bag that can be successful on any course is a good way to go about things.

I enjoy your line of thinking for only being in the sport for 1.5 years. Having your bag set and then learning how to throw those discs on multiple angles and multiple different shots is the way to go in my mind.

#1 - I think that your putter line up falls on the more overstable side, so to add another os putter might not be needed but if you are questioning yourself for not having it in your bag then I would say that you should bag it just so you can figure out if you need it or not.

#2 - I would say that you should try to perfect the discs that you have or try to find beat up versions of what you have. This shot for me is a beat up firebird. Now this firebird has been in my bag for many years and will turn over and only come back right at the end, its not really a firebird any more.

#3 - Yes, it is worth it to learn a weird disc that you only throw once every 10 rounds. I have super understable and super overstable discs in my bag that I hardly use. But when you need the shot you will be happy. Learning how to throw every disc in your bag on every angle will be super beneficial.

#4 - Spares, as in spares that you currently have in your bag or spares that you keep in storage and pull out when needed? For me, I tend to only carry spares in my bag when I am trying to beat up a disc or if I am playing a tournament where I know theres a big risk of loosing a disc. Now for spares I keep at home, theres never enough. Since I prescribe to mold minimalism, this is great for me. I tend to throw 6ish molds and because of this I can pick up any disc in the molds I throw and generally find a fit for it in my bag. Rocs are the biggest thing for me. I carry 6-7 in my bag normally and every single one of those discs has at least 5 backups in storage and this just happened naturally over time for me. I dont set out to have a specific number of backups but when I come across them I pick them up.

#5 - I currently have 2 discs in my bag that fit this description. The super beat up firebird that I bag is going to be one that is really hard to replace when I lose. I have discs that are similar but not the same since finding a super beat up champ firebird is almost impossible. The other disc I carry is an 11x KC Pro Teebird that I have bagged for over 10 years now. I know this disc back and forth and I dont have an exact replacement for it because its just to expensive now to replace it but I have others that are similar.
I would say that yes, you should bag those high confidence discs that cant be replaced because I believe that the alternative would hurt your game a touch. Now, if you are going to bag these discs. You should be actively looking for and throwing similar discs that can cover the shots for when you do lose or break said disc. Back to your question on spares. I do carry the most likely discs to take the spot of the hard to replace discs in my bag along side the hard to replace discs. I do this so that i can throw them both on the same hole, back to back, so that I can see just how well it can do to replace the discs.

Hopefully, I made some sense here and you can take something away from this but just take everything I said with a grain of salt. Usually, what you think the correct thing to do is probably the right decision for your game.

 

[hawgdriver]

So I feel ...

Dude, this is gold. Thank you!

About spares, I mean in case you might lose the disc in a tree or lake or river. Like you, I try to keep my shelf stocked with proven replacements.

I haven't lost many discs period, but during tourneys I have gotten my 'sky hyzer' 150g Destroyer caught in a tree, also my OS fairway (a Felon at the time), and sometimes I'll throw an errant shot that has a risk of being irretrievable. So the question is 'what disc could I sail in a tourney and lose the most strokes from'? And maybe I add a couple of spares in that slot. I'm thinking that for me that means a 2d Envy (I throw putters a lot now) and maybe a couple extra duplicates based on the course. In a vacuum I think the duplicates would be those discs that have the combo of 'most often thrown' and 'hardest to copy with the next closest disc'.

It's rare to get advice this good, on all accounts. You seem like you can read my mind. Thank you again.

 

[jakebake91]

1. Should I add an OS putter or mid back to the bag? I used to throw a Pig, Harp, Tactic, Caiman, A3, etc., a *lot*. Quite often FH, just as often as BH. I have a Pyro that really wants back in the bag, it's such a high quality disc. When I went to an Envy, for some reason that stopped, and now it's almost all BH. One of the shots I would throw a lot with that OS putter was a medium hyzer. Now I tend to throw more direct lines. This issue I can't resolve and would like thoughts. It's not about the particular disc as much as devoting effort toward a skill type--with this disc I'd tend to trust and lean into FH shots. It really gets down to accuracy and touch, FH vs. BH, long-term.

Horsman pretty much nailed everything already. He's usually a fountain of pretty reliable information. I approach some things differently from a bag building perspective (I can't do the cycling thing), but I've never seen anything from him that id absolutely disagree with.

The only thing I'd add or ask is....what could another OS mid or putter accomplish that your Stego can't? That thing is already the most OS thing imaginable. I bag one. I do carry an OS mid (Streamline CN Runway) to get more distance out of that os shot than my Stego. It's also a great FH driver and workable flexy get out of jail disc.

 

[flatflip]

1. Should I add an OS putter or mid back to the bag?

2. Should I include a 'distance' OS fairway back in the bag?

3. Is there any point in trying to develop a novel skillset with an unusual disc like the Paradox?

1. If you've got touch with your Draco, probably not. But it's definitely good to have something with bite for short range.

2. Curious what you would need here that the Invictus doesn't cover?

3. Probably. The two discs I use most for escape shots are an overstable lightweight driver (for overhand shots and touchy flex forehands with limited backswing) and a glidey paper plate (US mid). Paradox could probably pull pretty good paper plate duties.

4. I'm of the mind that you can never have too many backups. My disc dealer loves me.

5. If you've got it, use it.

 

[dmoore1998]

I'll address #3 because I feel like it's the most interesting question and also the one people often "miss" because of a thought pattern of hypothetical vs practical. I fall into this trap a lot because I want to "develop shots" even though frankly I won't use them.

The questions I ask myself are:

-What situation would I use this shot?
-What shot do I use in that situation now?
-Am I unhappy with my current shot?
-How good would my new shot have to be to replace my current shot?

Most recently for me it was "I should learn to hyzerflip a really US putter/mid to hit those dead straight wooded shots". Then after working on it for a bit I realize "one my best shots is throwing a buzzz dead-straight, why wouldn't I just do that every time in this situation". The level of practice that I would need to put into that shot to get better than i already am just throwing a buzzz straight is a complete waste of my time. So I scrapped that and started working more on 50-100 foot forehand putting...which I often find myself having to do but which I'm not very good at. My current shot is either a FH putt or a really anhyzered backhand putt. It wouldn't take much for my FH putt to quickly replace my anny bh putt and I'm unhappy with my current shot. That makes it worth pursuing.

I'm really working on trying to identify "gaps" rather than just identifying shots some people have that I don't. I'd rather have all the shots I need covered with something I'd consider 7/10 than have 3 options for the same shot at a 10/10 and everything else a 6/10. You don't get style points for being able to throw the exact same situation 8 different ways all beautifully. I feel like a lot of us who really enjoy practicing get caught up in that mindset.

 

[hawgdriver]

2. Curious what you would need here that the Invictus doesn't cover?

I'm struggling to come up with a good answer. My Invictus seems like more beef. I don't throw the Invictuses I bag as far as I throw my PD or FX2, and I've had it when the PD doesn't fight FW on an anny release as much as the Invictus would. But as a practical matter, I'm probably going to go Invictus if I have doubts about shot safety.

I kinda wonder if I'm inventing a slot that doesn't really exist though--I just imagine it does. If that makes sense.

I'll probably just stick with Invictus and make a mental note of situations in which I'd prefer a skosh less beef with a chance of more distance.

 

[flatflip]

I'm struggling to come up with a good answer. My Invictus seems like more beef. I don't throw the Invictuses I bag as far as I throw my PD or FX2, and I've had it when the PD doesn't fight FW on an anny release as much as the Invictus would. But as a practical matter, I'm probably going to go Invictus if I have doubts about shot safety.

I kinda wonder if I'm inventing a slot that doesn't really exist though--I just imagine it does. If that makes sense.

I'll probably just stick with Invictus and make a mental note of situations in which I'd prefer a skosh less beef with a chance of more distance.

There may be a slot there, which I'm guessing will get filled as the Invictus gets some wear -- then you can cycle a new one in. I'm not sure how they beat in but I would guess a seasoned one would be pretty reliable based on their initial stability.

 

[hawgdriver]

I'll address #3 because I feel like it's the most interesting question and also the one people often "miss" because of a thought pattern of hypothetical vs practical. I fall into this trap a lot because I want to "develop shots" even though frankly I won't use them.

The questions I ask myself are:

-What situation would I use this shot?
-What shot do I use in that situation now?
-Am I unhappy with my current shot?
-How good would my new shot have to be to replace my current shot?

Most recently for me it was "I should learn to hyzerflip a really US putter/mid to hit those dead straight wooded shots". Then after working on it for a bit I realize "one my best shots is throwing a buzzz dead-straight, why wouldn't I just do that every time in this situation". The level of practice that I would need to put into that shot to get better than i already am just throwing a buzzz straight is a complete waste of my time. So I scrapped that and started working more on 50-100 foot forehand putting...which I often find myself having to do but which I'm not very good at. My current shot is either a FH putt or a really anhyzered backhand putt. It wouldn't take much for my FH putt to quickly replace my anny bh putt and I'm unhappy with my current shot. That makes it worth pursuing.

I'm really working on trying to identify "gaps" rather than just identifying shots some people have that I don't. I'd rather have all the shots I need covered with something I'd consider 7/10 than have 3 options for the same shot at a 10/10 and everything else a 6/10. You don't get style points for being able to throw the exact same situation 8 different ways all beautifully. I feel like a lot of us who really enjoy practicing get caught up in that mindset.

Great point! Shot skill minimization is just as relevant as disc minimization...no one pays to hear Robert Plant play the drums.

 

[hawgdriver]

Yo!

I appreciate the thoughtful advice. I ended up adding the OS putter back to the bag for BH hyzer and FH touch/~270' shots (actually went with a Zone, although I think I'd prefer an A3 in 750 if the local had it stocked, both have a great rim profile but the A3 has proven some trick shot type chops with me).

So now...I've decided that all my headspace devoted to creating an elaborate partition of perfect discs is really just bullsh*t. What I need to do is trim an already modest bag.

Not sure where you are, but me and my bros, we tend to expand disc choice instead of consolidate.

Then I think...'seriously...if I'm hemming and hawing between overlapping discs, doesn't that mean I'm living a lie?' I'd like to get to where it's clear: I have discs A, B, and C. This is a shot for disc C, because disc C I have demonstrated the most mastery with at this range/condition/line/throw-movement. It's the least likely to punish me for my inherent imperfection, and the most likely to give me a putt.'

I get to thinking that my bag needs to be looked at with revolutionary eyes toward extreme minimization.

So...

Is radical minimization the way?

I think I can make the tough decisions on the overlaps, and keep the unique ones for when they have 'one job', but how radical do you get with the minimization?

 

[zontar]

trying playing a round with 7 discs. you'll start to figure out what you can get away with and how discs can be forced to do what you think they can't. throwing the "wrong" disc in a situation can be really enlightening.

 

[hawgdriver]

Update:

4 Envy: 2 at 165g, one stable, one neutral/US, 2 at 175g one stable, one neutral/US.
1 Berg
1 Zone
1 A2
1 Stego

1 Hex
1 Tursas
1 Paradox

3 Teebird

1 Bohrium

1 G* Corvette

1 Shryke (149g)

1 Essence
1+ FX-2 (or OLF)
1 Draco
1 GG Halo Wraith

 

[hawgdriver]

I played a round today. The local added shorties. So it was putter only for me. Longest was about 320 or 330.

Ok, so, adding useful internet content. For ... reasons. (?) Here we go.

My bag had 8 putters. 4 Envy for regular work based on winds and shape. All BH work even though Envy is a decent FH disc if you don't crank on it (I'd rather throw a Berg on FH if it's not Hex distances).

BIG TAKEAWAY!!!

My bag feels like a ball golf bag. I have a 9 iron, 8 iron, 7 iron, etc. And each is distance calibrated.

Stego is for the closest work. Idk. 200 ish. But 170 is a good range too. On some holes I'll yolo a 255' and it works out.

A2 is pretty close, but way longer than a Stego. Up to 270 on a max line, but I'd say 250 is a good range.

Then comes a Zone. Up to 290, maybe 300. These are all stable options.

I want to just fling a full power hyzer at a steep angle with any of these, or maybe some angle control to extend distance...but it's always a full send. That helps.

From about 170 to almost 300, this is a brainless approach to the game. I like it.

Berg is good to about 250 flat, FH or BH, and does the same kind of brainless stuff on a point and shoot basis that the others do on hyzer lines.

If you told me I could play a course and every hole was 270 or less, and no hole was an elevation nightmare...gimme Berg, Stego, A2, Zone

Not that these specific molds are amazing (although Berg and Stego make a case for that...) but this putter as "X-iron" approach seems to be suited to distance ranging.

Then there's this idea of 4 Envy for the 270-350 work. Based on winds and shape. Two lightweight, two max, one each neutral and stable. I'm not there yet. But in the field I notice serious persistent differences in HW/TW behavior. I wanna throw a 165 with the tail pretty much always when distance is a factor, and it doesn't need to be a screaming tailwind. Same in reverse for HW. And then I also notice my stable Envy tend to be forward/left finishers (regular lines) and my neutral Envy tend to be so point and shoot that it's sort of a thing. They are different, it's almost a completely different disc. I love it. Same mold. Same in the hand. Same swing.

Anyways, that's the nuance game that I want to continue to develop.

There is an argument that the Tursas and Paradox are also Envys. Super understable Envys. What I mean is that the swing is identical, you just tell yourself it behaves a notch differently. But usage-wise, it's exactly the same.

Then there's all those other discs. Whatever. Throw them, hope for the best.

Putters are the shizz.

PS The DX Teebird continues to creep up the rankings

And the Boatman is back in the bag...it's a Teebird at 10 speed or whatever. It really is. It's like a Teebird you can FH at full send and does grownup things.

Also, no disc is as aerodynamic as a Bohrium, I'd bet some stuff on this.