The Power of Posture

[koiyote]

I have a few other hypotheses:
1. Their personhood, ideas, and discussion are not always received cordially (and often with overt hostility). I occasionally receive some nasty words in my day job in blind peer review, but the average level of hostility from some people in some DGCR threads is often far worse and very offputting to some people.***

I'm new here and this is EXACTLY how it seems. I've seen a couple posts bashing YouTubers like Slingshot, Overthrow, and that standstill guy without much constructive criticism.

2. DGCR is a fairly small and niche community that discusses form at a level of detail rarely encountered elsewhere. Its content and discourse is strongly influenced by a small number of users. There is a large language and concept barrier to interacting with much of its content.

I feel that.

4. For various reasons, there is often a tendency to demote the opinions or lived experiences of people who learned to throw 500, 600, and 700' in DGCR. When outside users encounter DGCR content, they perceive that they are interacting with a bunch of cranky 300' throwers in an echo chamber (not my words, and I've heard it more than once).

Right. Isn't there some merit to the 500' standstill guy even if he's only been playing like 9 months or whatever?

 

[Sheep]

I have a few other hypotheses:
1. Their personhood, ideas, and discussion are not always received cordially (and often with overt hostility). I occasionally receive some nasty words in my day job in blind peer review, but the average level of hostility from some people in some DGCR threads is often far worse and very offputting to some people.***

2. DGCR is a fairly small and niche community that discusses form at a level of detail rarely encountered elsewhere. Its content and discourse is strongly influenced by a small number of users. There is a large language and concept barrier to interacting with much of its content.

3. The average user age here is much higher than most other DG communities, and the "center mass" of the war for clicks and views is mostly somewhere else. I liked the DGCR refresh and hope it helped, but it also doesn't seem like the kids will come rushing.

4. For various reasons, there is often a tendency to demote the opinions or lived experiences of people who learned to throw 500, 600, and 700' in DGCR. When outside users encounter DGCR content, they perceive that they are interacting with a bunch of cranky 300' throwers in an echo chamber (not my words, and I've heard it more than once).

***I'm a fan of Rapoport's rules.

Yeah, I don't think you're wrong here.
And I'm sure my attitude doesn't help at times because of my willingness to say how I feel in a very blunt fashion. It's not meant as awful attacks on others as a person, but I'm attacking their process or idea. It's hard to differentiate for a younger crowd the difference, because everything is a personal attack to them while the older crowd grew up differently. And even me being 40 years old, I grew up around guys who were 50+ my whole life and didn't interact with the younger crowd till I was in my mid 20's. So my brashness is ... well, forged in old fire of people who are honest and upfront about things, but it's never a personal attack.
Which then also in turn starts some interesting interactions now days with discussion because people struggle to articulate, so they turn it personal.

We hold our idea's very close to the chest, so when our idea's are challenged, we tend to take it personally by pure accident because you've emotionally invested yourself into your idea. Which.. is always a bad thing.

And yes, DGCR is a niche community. But it would be really nice for more coaches to talk more openly with less of this "its a waste of my time unless it gets me views or subscribers" attitude I'm seeing.
Maybe its my perspective, but I can only respond based on the way I've been treated. And .. It really doesn't help that I'm an asshole about it either.

And I don't think we should necessarily demote new opinions. But I do think we should be able to hold them up to scrutiny. And with the world of youtube and clickbaiting, what we end up with is the crux of the joke on the youtube coaches thing. Anyone can make a video and put a clickbait title on it, make up some random words and make them sound exciting, like "Double move" or "the method" or whatever other thing. And people eat it up. They want the magic pill. But.. That person has never forged their idea against the wheel of debate, and their knowledge on the subject is in its infancy, but they are trying to present as an expert. And that's where the problem comes, which is one of the reasons I posted the injury thread where I just went over calvins form. We have all these injuries popping up with pro players and in the non pro field. I talk to more than just people in here. And some of these injuries are from youtube coaches methods.

Were talking about the power of posture in here, it almost should be the power of proper posture prevents injury.
The goal of throwing successfully should be to throw in a manor that reduces the most likely hood of injury in general, because bad posture will turn into injury.

But. You can play for 10 months, post a video about how to throw 500+ be right or wrong, or provide one detail in there you don't understand well and get people hurt. It's not really a dig dig at clint, I know the dude can throw far, but I've also had FAR more conversations with him than anyone here in DGCR as ... I spent tons of time talking to him on discord where... he would ask for advice from coaches, then proceed to tell them they were wrong. The dude knows how to move his body though, its why he can explode with power so well, but ... It's almost impossible to teach that. You can kind of explain it, but unless you just "know," you can hurt yourself really really bad trying to imitate.

Which is why we get so hard on stuff ilke "Squish the bug" cause you can blow your knee's out that way, or hurt yourself other ways. It's people imitating motions they think are correct, when it's not.

Thanks for this article. I love social engineering stuff.

 

[Sheep]

No. Just kidding

Yesterday I threw bags with sawdust up into a container. They weight roughly 20-40 pounds and I noticed I automatically brace, have a way better upright hyzer lean, instead of curling myself into a pretzel (when I throw a disc) and they swing generally just feels SO good..

Would be awesome if I could throw a disc like that.. one day .

There are so many tasks we do that actually will show you how to do the brace or weight shift.

But instead when we put that frisbee in our hand, something turns into a dog turd in our brain and we flail about like idiots moving our bodies in the most awful of ways, while other tasks such as throwing a 20 lb bag are natural weight shift brace throw.

 

[Sheep]

I'm new here and this is EXACTLY how it seems. I've seen a couple posts bashing YouTubers like Slingshot, Overthrow, and that standstill guy without much constructive criticism.

Oh there is constructive critism in there.
But the issue is when people see something negative a lot of times, they turn defensive vs reading through it.

I write a lot of things in here with a fashion of seeing if people actually are knee jerk responding or actually reading what I'm writing.

99% of the time its a knee jerk response, because the rest of the info is in there.



And its really really tough in a place like DGCR, cause it takes a while to get up to speed on what normal topics things are talked about.

Slingshot is teaching a method of disc golf that is goign to get people hurt. There is no "constructive critism" to give anymore, its been explored, debunked and defined as "bad technique."

It's also important that we identify things properly. .. It's the engineer side of me. It's what I do. Classify, organize, define, execute.

New idea's are perfectly fine. But don't present them as a be all end all if you don't have the ass to back it up. Guys like Brychanus and Sidewinder are far far smarter people than I am, and we all work together in some fashion with everyone else in here to come to some very accurate conclusions.

What might be the turn off is how we all present them, because we all present data in far far different ways. Brycanus is usually quite kind and tries to be posisitve in his responses. While I am blunt and straightforward. I'll call your stupid idea stupid, because its stupid. But I'll let you know when you say something brilliant as well. Then sidewinder will generally hit you with an immense amount of data for you to boggle your mind over and scratch your head.

Others in here provide very outside perspectives on things as they study and watch and grow themselves as the rest of us try and figure out what is going on.

 

[ninjabq]

Ah, the tried and true "I'm not an asshole, I just say it how it is!" and "kids are just too soft these days!"

 

[Brychanus]

I'll try to steer the storm surge about to hit this thread despite all odds:

I would kindly suggest we move chatter about individual differences in communication styles and developmental histories thereof to its own thread.

Posture, anyone?

Getting Back to Neutral | Types of Proper Spinal Posture at Adresss

Proper spinal posture allows a golfer to boost the rotational power of the trunk while reducing injury risk. Getting back to Neutral Spinal Posture at address.

thedoctorsofpt.com

 

[Brychanus]

Here's one for the baseball inclined people. I didn't intuitively understand some of this until I started physically working with clubs this winter and it definitely helped my standstill power and accuracy. I think I like most of all of what he says but also raise for discussion.

"Swull"* (Swing-pull continuum) assessment: If you like the idea of combining McBeth-like power (or whatever the equivalent for your body) and coursecraft tools with good posture, the man himself will tell you his backhand is "basically a baseball swing." I like to imagine him running around with a little 8" baseball bat and see how true that is of his form hitting singles, doubles, triples, or homers all over the course. Also paying attention to when his moves look more or less baseball swing-like taught me a lot.

I like how he connected most of the key pieces of the action with words from each camera direction. For the most part consistent with the Seabas drill repository. Try it with two hands, then one hand to feel it out. Throw the bat if you want. You're throwing the disc, after all.

 

[Sheep]

Ah, the tried and true "I'm not an asshole, I just say it how it is!" and "kids are just too soft these days!"

Oh no. I'm an asshole. Wont deny that one bit.

And yes, people and kids are to soft. Words hurt their fweeeelings. Good lord. What happened to sticks and stones... words will never hurt me. Saying hello to people causes them a mental break down now.

 

[Sheep]

I'll try to steer the storm surge about to hit this thread despite all odds:

I would kindly suggest we move chatter about individual differences in communication styles and developmental histories thereof to its own thread.

Posture, anyone?

Getting Back to Neutral | Types of Proper Spinal Posture at Adresss

Proper spinal posture allows a golfer to boost the rotational power of the trunk while reducing injury risk. Getting back to Neutral Spinal Posture at address.

thedoctorsofpt.com

I mean, I tried to bring up some posture stuff and the importance of good posture. I think it got lost in my soap box standup moment. hahaha.

Then again, really just a re-hash of stuff talked about.
Though, I think not talked about enough.

proper posture to throwing mechanics to prevent injury.

But its whatever. =)

 

[Brychanus]

 

[Brychanus]

 

[Sewer bill]

View attachment 335616

Sumo move.

 

[Brychanus]

Sumo move.

Dude I am never gonna see this the same way again:

Also, big fellas that have absurd mobility, balance, and posture control.

 

[Sewer bill]

The striding low center of gravity is such a sumo move it's ridiculous how similar it is. Skateboarding also has some similar tricks that require the stride in stationary position because the board is moving. Fakie bigspins, pop shuv it reverts, backside trick variations, skimboarding and wake skating too.

 

[StupendousMan]

FWIW I generally liked what you said and like keeping things imple when possible.

Had a coaching concept for you to consider if you want to find your simple way to say it.

I myself suffered & noticed a pattern I now expect to see in people who have spent a lot of time with Olympic lifts/two-legged lifts where their center tends to get a bit trapped between the legs. This can be a matter of degree. E.g., in your case you get your weight foot to foot and the issue isn't that significant (and a hell of a lot better than mine at 10 months), but it's there. Sidewinder or others call it "horse stance," and some people call it "power stance" in golf.

I've looked into this more beyond just myself, and it now seems very clear (to me) that it's possible to develop a high-powered move in athletic people with some degree of power stance.

The point I am making is that it will also put more burden on muscular effort through the chain because it's not as efficient with respect to gravity, and it will also cause people to rotate more around a center axis without getting the full power of shifting their body mass laterally in the best axis (in other words, you leave one potential source of power on the table).

When they fix it, we usually see people either (1) significantly reduce their effort at a given distance or (2) add some amount of distance. I'm fairly convinced I'm not just speaking BS because some of the people who fix it that were already throwing 500' make significant additional gains, and with less effort.

You might like playing with this and similar concepts and consider how it would influence your form or talk to other players. I'll be curious what you think and learn if you tinker with it. This is one of the main concepts that motivated Sidewinder's "Turbo Encabulator" series.

I don't think you need to invoke "tilted spiral" to explain it if you don't want to. Just balance.

Sorry to kind of necro this a bit, but this is a puzzle I'm finding very fascinating too with myself currently.

For reference (and this is not meant to be a lame humble brag sort of thing just a literal reference point for why I think I'm finding this so challenging) after I finished competing at a mediocre level in track and field, I transitioned to powerlifting. My biggest raw back squat was 556 to IPF depth at 184. That was about a decade ago and I'm no where near as strong now. But, my body is still very used to that method of expressing strength, and I still do a lot of Olympic lifting for fun, so I haven't lost the "power stance" with externally rotated hips so to speak. I've found that at a standstill, I can generate sufficient internal rotation, and at very low velocities, but with any level of real spead even in a walking x step, my body completely defaults to these squatting positions. I think I do a reasonable job at the weight transfer half and find myself in similar shapes to those good at it, from about the ankle up lol. But the ability to not lock out my hips is abysmal.
I don't have a solution for how to fix this, but I find it fascinating and it's cool to see a couple other people noticing something similar here.

 

[Brychanus]

Sorry to kind of necro this a bit, but this is a puzzle I'm finding very fascinating too with myself currently.

For reference (and this is not meant to be a lame humble brag sort of thing just a literal reference point for why I think I'm finding this so challenging) after I finished competing at a mediocre level in track and field, I transitioned to powerlifting. My biggest raw back squat was 556 to IPF depth at 184. That was about a decade ago and I'm no where near as strong now. But, my body is still very used to that method of expressing strength, and I still do a lot of Olympic lifting for fun, so I haven't lost the "power stance" with externally rotated hips so to speak. I've found that at a standstill, I can generate sufficient internal rotation, and at very low velocities, but with any level of real spead even in a walking x step, my body completely defaults to these squatting positions. I think I do a reasonable job at the weight transfer half and find myself in similar shapes to those good at it, from about the ankle up lol. But the ability to not lock out my hips is abysmal.
I don't have a solution for how to fix this, but I find it fascinating and it's cool to see a couple other people noticing something similar here.

TL;DR: What else have you naturally done where you were at your quickest, lightest, and most balanced, especially moving side to side? Happy to give any specific pointers.

I guess I tend to put balance in a continuum between two extremes. Power or horse or now "lifter" stance is what you're talking about. It's strong and grounded and great for moving hundreds of pounds. It's what you probably have and I know I had. Athletic stance is what every "quick" athlete uses to get from foot to foot and transfer forces in one way or another. I've seen enough players to now believe there are a lot of people stuck somewhere between the two as well.

Two fundamental problems with the "lifter syndrome," which is like "power stance on steroids" (pun intended): (1) it puts your CoM squarely between your feet, and it never wants to really move from there and (2) tends to force you to do some version of a "two-legged" throw very much unlike walking or running.

Main learning/coaching problems: easy to misunderstand my intent on this point, but it's possible to be very, very mobile and strong in the two-legged "power stance" direction and have relatively not as great mobility or strength for "functional" movements. Here's Anatoly pretending to be a janitor and surprising people with his "functional" (moving leg to leg) strength. Sorry for the clickbaity nature, but the crazy example helps get the point across:


The neuromuscular problem is if you always reinforce to your body and brain and muscles "this is how we move for force", what do you think it's going to do when you have to do another forceful, even "quick" move? Trap your CoM and force you to rotate around your spine unnaturally, probably. Put more burden on the muscles than the momentum? Almost certainly.

Assuming you're "strong" enough in the right ways, you need to attack the fundamental balance problem either way. You probably need to learn (or re-learn in the sideways-ish move) what running, walking, and dance have in common. It has all of the posture and "Figure 8" components you see written about around here. In the context of the backhand, it's generally one form or another of moving quick and light and aggressively moving toward the target, then athletic in transition. You've probably done it before and never had to think about it, and the trouble is (1) "lifter stance" is deeply encoded and (2) you have trouble naturally doing otherwise when you want the puny disc to go far.

Also, it must have been frustrating for Sidewinder to know I danced but just could not figure this out for months and months for disc golf. In hindsight I had a couple specific injury related issues, but more important I think now was that I simply never really understood what "athletic" posture was: certainly not when throwing moving sideways. So I couldn't get my waltz to generalize over to my DG form. It's starting to work now, but I never could have predicted the path it would take to get there. It's also probably not going to work as easily for anyone else if they haven't gone through Waltz posture and tilt training to some extent.

Here's a relevant post, not sure if this inspires any "ah has" for anyone:

People get messed up in their BH because (1) the move is usually unnatural moving sideways and (2) you're backswinging or reaching back in a way you probably haven't before. It's a huge balance problem and you can't "fake" it. That's why most x steps are deficient and why Sidewinder emphasizes getting as much as you can out of standstill mechanics first.

You generally don't want to anatomically extend off of the drive leg because it violates the above "Figure 8" action - this probably doesn't happen when you walk***. Pitchers don't do it. Cricketeers don't do it. Batters don't do it. Racketers don't, high level DG backhanders and forehanders don't, etc. etc. etc.

Part of the action is moving instep to instep in athletic posture, which is basically just another part of fundamental locomotion like walking. It's Sidewinder's "gas pedal," part of ride the Bull (plus the fix he gave you), and so on.

So are Josh Anthon and Waltz the "same" move? In one sense you want to say "no! They look so different!" But on the other hand given that I have both Waltzed (decently) and run (mediocre, but possible), I can tell you that if Anthon is the "runniest" form we've seen, Waltz is just the opposite end of the spectrum getting as long and smooth as possible in that same fundamental locomotion pattern. That's why it also has the same side bend and tilt you want to access in disc golf. Anthon's form just keeps everything quick and compressed and horizontal. My evolving move is just emphasizing the "length" of every part of the move, which also means it can either go high-low-high (vertical) or get stretched out long and low (horizontal). It's still just a fancy, "long" walk. A pitcher's stride, Hershyzer function exactly the same way in athletic posture. That was the connection that just "clicked" for me in my own body for the first time when I do my hybrid Waltz-Hershyzer windup.*** What I lack in quickness and running ability I can make up for to some extent by getting as "long" as possible and getting a deceiving amount of momentum from "Waltzing into it." If you've ever seen expert Waltz in person you would start to understand just how damn big and fast their moves are. Like a graceful Temple of Doom scenario - you better get the hell out of their way, or hope they care enough to avoid you.

In Waltz and Disc golf, you usually get a similar evolution - people start with stricter angles, then get more comfortable with the natural (but initially awkward and off balance) longer motions. A novice waltzer takes tiny steps in 90 degrees moves. Almost everyone starts that way, looks uncomfortable and kind of robotic, and additional gets nervous holding a partner typically of the opposite sex while being observed. Then if you keep going and have a good instructor, you get longer and longer, which means you get more and more tilted. Then the really high-level motion kicks in when you get very tall, very tilted, and what is still a "linear" move anatomically (leverage) becomes that beautiful, graceful dance (I got to the "tier" below those dancers in the gif I shared, but was starting to work on these things, especially deep tilt).

Beginners:

Experts. I can tell you from experience - you do not want to be in their way:

 

[Nick Pacific]

I occasionally receive some nasty words in my day job, but the average level of hostility from some people in some DGCR threads is often far worse and very offputting to some people.***

People at your day job speak/write under their real names. Most people here do not. That is the difference. All the most cordial people here either post under their real names or have revealed who they are.

I am 100% for internet anonymity in the right spaces, but I think you're way better off in places like here not being so.

 

[Sheep]

People at your day job speak/write under their real names. Most people here do not. That is the difference. All the most cordial people here either post under their real names or have revealed who they are.

I am 100% for internet anonymity in the right spaces, but I think you're way better off in places like here not being so.

I speak with far less words in person and have far far far less issues with people responding to me. Because people forget with text there is no tone and inflection, no body language.

What people do is add in their own personal opinion onto what that person is saying vs actually reading the words for what they are. I've never been in here to be hostile to others or talk down to others. Maybe brow beat a little, but its a discussion group, not a circle jerk group. I'm not here to give everyone a tug cause they said something on the internet.

I just try and speak clearly with what I'm thinking about on the topic at hand to illustrate my opinions or thoughts on the topic.

I have nothing to hide or who I am. You can find my real name everywhere. There are pictures of me, instructional video's. I'm in news casts, news papers. whatever.
I offer to take people on reddit or anywhere out to play as a local ambassador for my area.
There has been a few times I've ended up with people online who hated me online in groups, but after meeting me in person, they understand and we get along great from there on out.

People just take things to seriously on the internet, they add in their own feelings to hard to words on the screen and make up fake narratives for people and then start responding to that person like that even if that person isn't true.



I'll drop this link in here. This was a requested deal cause me and this guy hated each others guts, mostly in a game way. But I couldn't effing stand this guy.



Oh look here we are in oakland california.

Cause we figured out after that huge interview that we were just missunderstood.



My living room that night. hahaha.

Point being. People put WAY to much emotion into online conversations. Nobody is attacking you, you're just looking to be upset and you're looking to respond emotionally because you've made up the story of who you think that person is, vs who they are.

I get new guys here online who attack me locally, then I see them at the course. I try and talk to them and all those big words are suddenly gone, and I'm just trying to look at them in the face and say "hey dude, I'm not the bad guy, and I don't hate you."

Edit.
I should add in here. I'm kind to everyone. If you keep treating me poorly in return. I do stop returning the favor. There are people that I talk poorly about, its because I got fed up with trying to be kind.
I can only clean the shit off my shoes so many times before I start throwing it back at you.
So yeah, when you see me actually being mean to someone its because I've given them 3 or 4 chances and they keep acting a fool.

Edit 2.

I totally forgot to respond to Nick's actual post.

Yes, people do away with some things online for sure, and you can tell the ones who are doing it. It's blatantly obvious. The anonymity online causes people to do horrific things because there are 0 consequences.

I see people in the real world cause I do teach 1 on 1, I do participate with my community. I do help others when they visit.
Do you think I'm over here hiding behind anonymity when I'm talking brashly online when I'm actually putting myself out in the DG community publically?