2019 DGPT Championship Charlotte, NC Oct 18- 20

[DiscFifty]

But requiring players to land behind their lie after releasing before moving forward past it isn't a bad idea. But then, you have to also decide whether they need to maintain balance and make a judgment about that whereas allowing players to simply release before landing in front, even if they fall or continue stepping forward, would probably reduce the need to make fault calls.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

I've suggested this for years around here. And was always met with some negativity. I'm glad people are finally seeing the need for something like this. Let players, jump, step, dance, all they want, but land in back of your lie before releasing the disc. Would definitely reduce the need to make fault calls, and also visibly much easier visually to do so if desired.

 

[Nick Pacific]

I am not sure it makes much difference in AM's, outside of a few high 900 and 1000 rated MA1 guys. I have seen very few effective jump or step putting in the AM ranks.

Challenge accepted!!

 

[JTacoma03]

There is so much opportunity in the FPO field for a player to step up and dominate. Cat's mental game and putting are awful. Hokom is terrified of throwing a backhand. Paige throws OB constantly and lacks confidence in her forehand.

Kristin Tattar doesn't seem to have any glaring weaknesses like these, I'm very interested to see what she does next year.

This is the biggest swing-and-a-miss that I've seen in a long time.

A) Catrina won the tournament despite putting like a FA1 player in the final round, so that would prove that her mental game is strong, not weak. Mental fortitude =/= happy attitude. So many people mix those things up.

B) Hokom threw MULTIPLE backhands for the past two weeks and generally was highly successful with them. You could argue her patent pending BH turnover on #14 during the final round at HoF was THE shot that turned the tide.

C) Paige has plenty of confidence in her FH, that's not why those shots failed. She was playing ultra-aggressive (as is her typical style). If confidence + aggression was all you needed to win Simon Lizotte would never lose.


Sorry, I was there, and this narrative just does not fit whatsoever.

 

[Chains Bailey]

I agree, although it's possible the RC might also consider changing the rule to where you can release your throw sometime before your foot steps in front of the lie even if it occurs after your supporting point has left the surface.

This would be interesting if it ever happened. If you are speaking of only putting, maybe there is a way to incorporate the idea.

My concern would be "release your throw...even if it occurs after your supporting point has left the surface" - this would seem to allow a player directly behind a large obstacle (Tree) to run perpendicular the the LOP and launch from a legal point behind their mark and while in the air wait to clear the obstacle (Tree) and then throw before landing.

I think plenty of players could run and jump 4-5 feet sideways and then throw a disc while in the air. Not too accurately, but just the gain in distance would be a positive to many verse having to just pitch out. Seems many situations could come into play...Just on the edge of the woods pinched with no line up the fairway at all on a long hole and you are 600FT away - run, plant, jump and CHUCK the disc as far as you can down the fairway. Same would go for if you are 60FT out and have no line to lay up at all, but just a few feet out of your reach it is open with nothing between you and the basket - run, plant, jump, TOSS your disc close to the basket.

When I first started playing I actually asked about this specifically. It seemed an easy out if I could just plant behind the marker, jump and throw mid-air. I was quickly and correctly told no and their slight laughter after my question prompted me to get a rule book ASAP.

 

[Cgkdisc]

This would be interesting if it ever happened. If you are speaking of only putting, maybe there is a way to incorporate the idea.

My concern would be "release your throw...even if it occurs after your supporting point has left the surface" - this would seem to allow a player directly behind a large obstacle (Tree) to run perpendicular the the LOP and launch from a legal point behind their mark and while in the air wait to clear the obstacle (Tree) and then throw before landing.

I'm not sure allowing players to jump sideways should be a problem. It's more athletic and interesting to watch someone try to pull off a better throw from a less than ideal throwing position moving sideways in the air.

 

[Chains Bailey]

I'm not sure allowing players to jump sideways should be a problem. It's more athletic and interesting to watch someone try to pull off a better throw from a less than ideal throwing position moving sideways in the air.

OK -agreed, it would be tremendously entertaining to watch. Disagree that it would be a good rule change.

 

[SD86]

But requiring players to land behind their lie after releasing before moving forward past it isn't a bad idea. But then, you have to also decide whether they need to maintain balance and make a judgment about that whereas allowing players to simply release before landing in front, even if they fall or continue stepping forward, would probably reduce the need to make fault calls.

I have advocated for some time that the forward foot should have to be on the ground behind the marker (or front of the tee) within the currently defined bounds when the disc comes out of the hand. That should cover everything from tee shots to putts within the circle.

Jump putts and step putts would be eliminated, but considering the infractions that happen on those plays and that they never are called by other players, I'd be perfectly fine with just eliminating them altogether.

 

[Harold Duvall]

A) Catrina won the tournament despite putting like a FA1 player in the final round, so that would prove that her mental game is strong, not weak. Mental fortitude =/= happy attitude. So many people mix those things up.

I believe this is incomplete. While I agree that mental fortitude is not equal to a happy attitude, I do not believe that Catrina's inside the circle putting reflects a strong mental game. There appear to be two Catrinas. On the tee, Catrina is a lion, and it takes a lion's courage, or mental fortitude, to fire shot after shot into the circle of uncertain putting. Inside the circle, there appears to be a different Catrina, at least as viewed from the comfort of my couch. There are some pretty simple fixes to her short putt mindset and mechanics. While these are pretty straightforward, they are not necessarily easy. This is where her champion's heart will really come in to play, and potentially allow her to grasp several more world championships.

 

[turbosteve]

I believe this is incomplete. While I agree that mental fortitude is not equal to a happy attitude, I do not believe that Catrina's inside the circle putting reflects a strong mental game. There appear to be two Catrinas. On the tee, Catrina is a lion, and it takes a lion's courage, or mental fortitude, to fire shot after shot into the circle of uncertain putting. Inside the circle, there appears to be a different Catrina, at least as viewed from the comfort of my couch. There are some pretty simple fixes to her short putt mindset and mechanics. While these are pretty straightforward, they are not necessarily easy. This is where her champion's heart will really come in to play, and potentially allow her to grasp several more world championships.

Is Innova signing Catrina?

 

[1978]

If anyone watched Catrina, I dont know how they could say she has strong mental fortitude near the basket. She clearly gave up taking any time to concentrate on her putts in the middle. She won the event despite herself. She wasnt missing like Drew was missing, she was missing because she thought it was over.

 

[Harold Duvall]

I want everyone to want to play Innova.

I also want the very best to play their very best. I want Paul's ankle to heal, Eagle's hand to mend, and Ricky's health to return. And I want to see Catrina play as fiercely inside the circle as she does outside. She did not appear to me to give up inside the circle, thankfully. Quitting is much harder to fix.

 

[JTacoma03]

I believe this is incomplete. While I agree that mental fortitude is not equal to a happy attitude, I do not believe that Catrina's inside the circle putting reflects a strong mental game. There appear to be two Catrinas. On the tee, Catrina is a lion, and it takes a lion's courage, or mental fortitude, to fire shot after shot into the circle of uncertain putting. Inside the circle, there appears to be a different Catrina, at least as viewed from the comfort of my couch. There are some pretty simple fixes to her short putt mindset and mechanics. While these are pretty straightforward, they are not necessarily easy. This is where her champion's heart will really come in to play, and potentially allow her to grasp several more world championships.

If anyone watched Catrina, I dont know how they could say she has strong mental fortitude near the basket. She clearly gave up taking any time to concentrate on her putts in the middle. She won the event despite herself. She wasnt missing like Drew was missing, she was missing because she thought it was over.

The common characterization that I disagree with in terms of judging mental game is that, seemingly, both of your arguments equate the act of making mistakes with a "lower score" on the mental fortitude exam. Correct me if I'm misreading that.

However, the fact that Catrina can 3-putt from birdie to bogey from inside the circle, and then immediately Eagle the following hole by canning a circle's-edge tester is more important to me as a whole than the singular fact that she drove well on 12 and then missed putts. If her mental game was weak, she would have lost after 12, and double down after she goes Eagle-Birdie then Double Bogey on 15. Recognizing fallibility and imperfection inherent in the player and still achieving greatness despite it is the ultimate display of mental fortitude in my eyes.

The way I see it, executing to perfection doesn't mean your mental game is the best, that means your preparation was on point. Mental game is about getting back up when golf lands a haymaker on your temple, having a clear mind when things are going well is EZ. I can't think of a more foundation-shaking event on a golf course than missing something inside of 10'.

Let me ask it this way-

Would we also say in this case, if Catrina has poor mental fortitude, that Paige also does?

Paige has round-by-round rollercoasters where she will play a course to near-perfection and then the next day tag first available tree 5 times in the first 6 holes.

 

[Casey 1988]

I am not sure it makes much difference in AM's, outside of a few high 900 and 1000 rated MA1 guys. I have seen very few effective jump or step putting in the AM ranks. The same issues that make stand and deliver putting inconsistent, are still the problem with their jump putting.

I guess I don't really see the point of jump putting anyway. I have spend a lifetime throwing a Frisbee to a friend from nearly any distance. Fairly accurately, I might add.

I do not either anymore with the stand and back leg pushing body forward more and more to a point ~37 feet to ~40 feet where I start to use a Shark as the approach putting disc more in a putting style then an approach style throw can go as far back with a putter to 40 feet. I did a jump putt while in the air but straight up before putting at the spot ~34 feet on back at one point in the 2000's before I stopped for using a different putter disc Upshot #2 in Prostyle for approach shots still in the bag for other shots or a Wizard that I gave away to a friend.

 

[Harold Duvall]

Not trying to be disrespectful, but since you asked .... I feel you mischaracterized what I wrote. I did not speak about mistakes, or execution or perfection.

 

[mizunodave]

Here is 30 seconds of what I'm talking about with Cat's mental game. From 2:33:20

 

[roblee]

I'm not sure allowing players to jump sideways should be a problem. It's more athletic and interesting to watch someone try to pull off a better throw from a less than ideal throwing position moving sideways in the air.

Sure but isn't that contrary to the tenant of: play it where it lies? It sounds like "take one giant step" golf. Or maybe I misinterpreted.

 

[cheesethin]

If you think about it, the disc is usually released in front of your lie so it's not strange at all. But requiring players to land behind their lie after releasing before moving forward past it isn't a bad idea. But then, you have to also decide whether they need to maintain balance and make a judgment about that whereas allowing players to simply release before landing in front, even if they fall or continue stepping forward, would probably reduce the need to make fault calls.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

I've suggested this for years around here. And was always met with some negativity. I'm glad people are finally seeing the need for something like this. Let players, jump, step, dance, all they want, but land in back of your lie before releasing the disc. Would definitely reduce the need to make fault calls, and also visibly much easier visually to do so if desired.

DiscFifty, I don't think you and Cgkdisc are saying the same thing. I think Cgkdisc is talking about players releasing before they have a supporting point within the lie. What you appear to be saying DiscFifty is currently legal - that players can do what ever the hell they want as long as they have a supporting point within the lie at the point of release.

Apologies if I have misunderstood either of you.

 

[1978]

The common characterization that I disagree with in terms of judging mental game is that, seemingly, both of your arguments equate the act of making mistakes with a "lower score" on the mental fortitude exam. Correct me if I'm misreading that.

However, the fact that Catrina can 3-putt from birdie to bogey from inside the circle, and then immediately Eagle the following hole by canning a circle's-edge tester is more important to me as a whole than the singular fact that she drove well on 12 and then missed putts. If her mental game was weak, she would have lost after 12, and double down after she goes Eagle-Birdie then Double Bogey on 15. Recognizing fallibility and imperfection inherent in the player and still achieving greatness despite it is the ultimate display of mental fortitude in my eyes.

The way I see it, executing to perfection doesn't mean your mental game is the best, that means your preparation was on point. Mental game is about getting back up when golf lands a haymaker on your temple, having a clear mind when things are going well is EZ. I can't think of a more foundation-shaking event on a golf course than missing something inside of 10'.

Let me ask it this way-

Would we also say in this case, if Catrina has poor mental fortitude, that Paige also does?

Paige has round-by-round rollercoasters where she will play a course to near-perfection and then the next day tag first available tree 5 times in the first 6 holes.

Yes, I think you misunderstood. In my opinion and in the opinion of the commentators, Catrina clearly gave up on some of the putts in the middle. Different than worlds when she had more time and could hope for a perfect drive to leave her with a close putt because there were more rounds to be played. Her posture, facial expression, and how she approached her putt, plus the flippant way she putted made it clear to me that she resigned to missing putts and said ..F-it. IF I am going to miss I might as well just flip it at the basket with out trying extra. Completely unrelated, the other women fell apart. That gave her the desire to try again at the end. Paige made some suspect decisions or else Cat would have completely folded and just gone through the motions. She appeared the most detached on hole 12...but then PP blew up 13 and that gave Cat confidence that she wasn't seeing in herself.

 

[1978]

In the same way you see other pros "quit." If a player has a terrible 10 holes and then takes some crazy 1 line, fraught with risk, that nets an Eagle, you could say...see he didnt give up. I would contend that the player did give up and tried something spectacular that more often than not yields a very high score...but they executed it and lucked into an eagle. Cat getting an eagle had everything to do with Paige putting for double. Cat didn't summon confidence...Paige made it easier because Cat knew even if she missed she still gained 2 strokes. She just happened to make the putt, which happens sometimes, despite yourself.

Its all about the attitude, you can't judge by the result.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Sure but isn't that contrary to the tenant of: play it where it lies? It sounds like "take one giant step" golf. Or maybe I misinterpreted.

The big misunderstanding about disc golf is that we also "play it where it lies" emulating ball golf. We can't do it like ball golf unless we kick the same disc for each shot. Our version is to take a stance in a defined area behind where the disc is marked. The release point, grip, spin and disc angle for the throw has thousands of possible combinations for each lie, and the taller the player, the more possible options. There are even more lateral options for release points as long as the supporting point is behind the tee line.

My point here is that we have chosen our own rule parameters that define where and how players can make their next throw depending on the nature of the tee or where the disc lands and it's only approximately related to "play it where it lies." We have the flexibility to tweak those parameters for a variety of reasons such as making the game more fun, more challenging, more interesting to watch or because players think it's a cool improvement.