Am Payouts stifle pro growth?

[DiscFifty]

So is your interest in cheaper AM side events catering to people who don't care from players packs and merch prizes?

Doesn't seem to mesh with how you started this thread. AMs who are happy paying a bargain entry to play for trophy only and no players pack aren't going to pay a lot more for no chance in PRO. Many of the "local pro" players I know have INT ratings and are only playing PRO to get out from under the AM Scam. The players packs and merch prizes many people have little interest in encourage PRO side growth.

The thread evolved a bit. I think there are 2 distinct am players.

1) The am player who like you said is in it for the friendly competition, social aspect, etc. He will more than likely never go pro. This really isn't the type of player my op was addresing. But...I think there is still a fine line what happens to this player when they start playing better. Especially when there is merch on the line. Do they motivate themselves to get even better and turn pro or stay where they are at and enjoy the funny money? I see this happen around here in the age protected divisions where ams with ratings as high or higher than the pros decide to play against ams with much lower ratings. Full disclosure. I'm just barely above rec rating due to inconsistency but I can also bust out some high rated rounds and I took advantage of that for quite a while and won a ****e load of merch. Sometimes 100's from just one tournament! It can be a bit addicting to be honest.

2) This is the main player I'm talking about. The player that could obviously cash in one of the pro divisions but decides to stay in the am divisions. They are brought up into the sport with merch payouts, player packs, from the start so they get used to getting a decent return for their investment. There is no immediate need to get better or go pro because there is a strong subliminal satisfaction from winning merch, etc. So my point is, if ams were brought up just on trophy only, would they "want" to get better and play pro sooner? My feeling is the "subliminal positive message" from winning merch, getting player packs, etc, for am players is just too satisfying so they stay in their comfy zones for an extended time.

 

[Suspect]

As an AM player I'd rather pay less at registration and maybe buy something at whatever course with the money I would be saving. This way instead of a players pack, I could get what I really want. JMO

The park I play at most does provide good player packs, as well as a good amount of people who placed at the end. They usually receive a voucher for the store. Also the registration fees are not expensive at all.

 

[DavidSauls]

The thread evolved a bit. I think there are 2 distinct am players.

1) The am player who like you said is in it for the friendly competition, social aspect, etc. He will more than likely never go pro. This really isn't the type of player my op was addresing. But...I think there is still a fine line what happens to this player when they start playing better. Especially when there is merch on the line. Do they motivate themselves to get even better and turn pro or stay where they are at and enjoy the funny money? I see this happen around here in the age protected divisions where ams with ratings as high or higher than the pros decide to play against ams with much lower ratings. Full disclosure. I'm just barely above rec rating due to inconsistency but I can also bust out some high rated rounds and I took advantage of that for quite a while and won a ****e load of merch. Sometimes 100's from just one tournament! It can be a bit addicting to be honest.

2) This is the main player I'm talking about. The player that could obviously cash in one of the pro divisions but decides to stay in the am divisions. They are brought up into the sport with merch payouts, player packs, from the start so they get used to getting a decent return for their investment. There is no immediate need to get better or go pro because there is a strong subliminal satisfaction from winning merch, etc. So my point is, if ams were brought up just on trophy only, would they "want" to get better and play pro sooner? My feeling is the "subliminal positive message" from winning merch, getting player packs, etc, for am players is just too satisfying so they stay in their comfy zones for an extended time.

Category 2 is a very tiny portion of the amateur players. Throw out the ones who are hanging around for one final more trip to AmWorlds, and you don't have a lot of Am players who would cash in Pro---other than occasional over-their-head performance.

Certainly not enough that they would significantly affect the growth of the pro division, if they moved up.

I think you're doing too much mind-reading, assuming their motivation is their addiction to winning stuff; or that they'd try to improve more, without it. Most players are trying to improve as much as they reasonably can; many plateau in the mid-900 ratings range.

Though it might mitigate the fact that if they were to go pro, they'd have to pay higher fees and almost never cash back. But that's only made worse with a low-entry, trophy-only amateur structure.

 

[DiscFifty]

I think you're doing too much mind-reading, assuming their motivation is their addiction to winning stuff; or that they'd try to improve more, without it. Most players are trying to improve as much as they reasonably can; many plateau in the mid-900 ratings range.

Perhaps I am over thinking it..well it is a discussion after all.. lol.. but facts are in my short 5 year history of watching the pros play there is very little growth in the pro side. * I'm pretty much seeing the same players in every event. Ams will test the waters in the pro divisions and realize how much effort it would take to cash. Surely..some make the decision that it's not worth trying to get better since they can stay where they are at and win merch. Take away the merch...maybe a different thought process?

* Is there a way to see how many pro players there have been year after year? That would be interesting.

 

[ejvogie]

Aka TD profit. He can do with it what he pleases. Just the same as if he sold you a disc outright not in a tournament setting.

So what are the benefits and to whom, of seeding Pro purse with AM differential? Or put differently, why do TDs do it, what's the motivation? Not questioning their right to, or the morality of it - just interested as to why it is done?

Let me be clearer. It's not AKA Am Differential. It's 100% TD profit. What anyone chooses to call it is irrelevant. Who gave him the money and how he generated the profit is irrelevant. Someone found value in the service provided, and paid what they consider a fair price for it. It's his money to spend as he pleases, just like your paycheck allows you to do.

As to the motive for adding it to the Pro payout, it's been covered, but most generally (IMO) it's used to draw a larger Pro field.

 

[DavidSauls]

Perhaps I am over thinking it..well it is a discussion after all.. lol.. but facts are in my short 5 year history of watching the pros play there is very little growth in the pro side. * I'm pretty much seeing the same players in every event. Ams will test the waters in the pro divisions and realize how much effort it would take to cash. Surely..some make the decision that it's not worth trying to get better since they can stay where they are at and win merch. Take away the merch...maybe a different thought process?

* Is there a way to see how many pro players there have been year after year? That would be interesting.

The motherlode of disc golf demographics:

https://www.pdga.com/demographics

From 2016 to 2018, pro memberships increased from 7,463 to 9,410 (26% over 2 years)

Pro purses increases from $3.9 million o $4.9 million (about the same)

I'd guess that pro entries in tournaments increased along with these, though in a quick glance I can't put my finger on them.

 

[DavidSauls]

Otherwise, DiscFifty, I understand your thinking. But going back to the 3rd post of this thread, it's not just a matter of "take away the merch"; it depends on what else you do.

If you take away payouts but keep charging Ams $60 for events, presumably giving it all back in players packs, there's still little financial incentive to pay $80 pro and not cash. Am is still, essentially, free with purchase.

If you take away payouts and charge $20 for Am tournaments, but $80 for pro, there's still little financial incentive to pay $80 and not cash.

That's the financial incentives. Of course, there are others that dictate player division choices.

Now, if you took away the merch and Am tournaments still cost $60, gave a $20 players pack and no payout.....yeah, maybe a jump to pro would be more enticing to some.

 

[1978]

Perhaps I am over thinking it..well it is a discussion after all.. lol.. but facts are in my short 5 year history of watching the pros play there is very little growth in the pro side. * I'm pretty much seeing the same players in every event. Ams will test the waters in the pro divisions and realize how much effort it would take to cash. Surely..some make the decision that it's not worth trying to get better since they can stay where they are at and win merch. Take away the merch...maybe a different thought process?

* Is there a way to see how many pro players there have been year after year? That would be interesting.

If there was $100,000 added pro cash, it would grow. The problem is we aren't running a model that we get 100,000 added cash from.

I ask myself, why does anyone care if they have a "pro" division.
-Good Pro's want a larger pro division so they make more money.
-TD's want a larger pro division for Ego and Altruism....the feelings of importance they get drawing a name brand pro...to either view their course, event, or just meet with.

The two options I come up with don't seem to inspire the volunteers or the TD's to grow pro divisions. Guilting Ams by using ignorant terms like bagger just forces them into accepting cash too early and washing out of the competitive part of the sport altogether.

Am's enjoy playing amateur for a ton of reasons. TD's enjoy the reduced responsibility and benefits of running Am events. Its a system where an Am field is better for the community, TD, and player, so why do any work to get pros.

 

[DiscFifty]

Otherwise, DiscFifty, I understand your thinking. But going back to the 3rd post of this thread, it's not just a matter of "take away the merch"; it depends on what else you do.

If you take away payouts but keep charging Ams $60 for events, presumably giving it all back in players packs, there's still little financial incentive to pay $80 pro and not cash. Am is still, essentially, free with purchase.

If you take away payouts and charge $20 for Am tournaments, but $80 for pro, there's still little financial incentive to pay $80 and not cash.

That's the financial incentives. Of course, there are others that dictate player division choices.

Now, if you took away the merch and Am tournaments still cost $60, gave a $20 players pack and no payout.....yeah, maybe a jump to pro would be more enticing to some.

Appreciate the comments btw. I agree with most of your comments except for this one....

"If you take away payouts and charge $20 for Am tournaments, but $80 for pro, there's still little financial incentive to pay $80 and not cash."

Charge $20.00 for the ams and the only thing you get is a trophy if you win, nothing else. So everyone is happy except the ones that want something more for their win. Sure your proposed $20.00am vs $80.00pro probably wouldn't persuade too many to play pro, but what if the prices were the same for both am or pro divisions? Since the better ams wouldn't win any merch, etc, perhaps they might consider playing pro. I sometimes wonder if that's what DD is doing here in the DFW area where at least in the age protected divisions they are charging the same for am/pro.

 

[DavidSauls]

You're disagreeing with me, but giving a different example than I did.

$20 Am / $80 Pro - the player may not win anything in Am, but he's not likely to win anything in Pro, either. Half the pros don't, and he's more likely to be in that bottom half, than not. It's a losing bet, and I doubt many will put down $80 for it.

But, yeah, $20 Am / $20 Pro, maybe he will. Of course, the existing Pros who want him to move up so they can take his money, may not come.

 

[DiscFifty]

You're disagreeing with me, but giving a different example than I did.

$20 Am / $80 Pro - the player may not win anything in Am, but he's not likely to win anything in Pro, either. Half the pros don't, and he's more likely to be in that bottom half, than not. It's a losing bet, and I doubt many will put down $80 for it.

But, yeah, $20 Am / $20 Pro, maybe he will. Of course, the existing Pros who want him to move up so they can take his money, may not come.

Seems like you're saying the am will not get any better when/if he goes pro. One of my points is that they don't feel the need to get better due to the am comfy funny money. Now if there was no funny money maybe they would try to get better...quicker. ? ? ? But yah..the discussion ran it's course. Thank you for your insight.

 

[DavidSauls]

Seems like you're saying the am will not get any better when/if he goes pro. One of my points is that they don't feel the need to get better due to the am comfy funny money. Now if there was no funny money maybe they would try to get better...quicker. ? ? ? But yah..the discussion ran it's course. Thank you for your insight.

I don't think he will get better.

I've seen a lot of Ams move up to pro prematurely, and plateau out. Years ago you weren't allowed to move back or play down, so once they did it and plateaued below the cash line, they were stuck.

There's no reason to believe players will try to get better as losing pros, but are content to not get better as winning Ams. Every player I know, is trying to get better.

There's no evidence that "playing with better players" matters, either. Top Ams are playing with similarly-rated players (at least after round 1). If they move to Pro, they'll still be playing with similarly-rated players (after round 1). You're always playing with people who shoot similar scores.

People try to get better, and people have realistic caps on how much better they can get. Otherwise, we'd all be McBeth….or at least, everyone who wanted to be, would be.

 

[lyleoross]

Perhaps I am over thinking it..well it is a discussion after all.. lol.. but facts are in my short 5 year history of watching the pros play there is very little growth in the pro side. * I'm pretty much seeing the same players in every event. Ams will test the waters in the pro divisions and realize how much effort it would take to cash. Surely..some make the decision that it's not worth trying to get better since they can stay where they are at and win merch. Take away the merch...maybe a different thought process?

* Is there a way to see how many pro players there have been year after year? That would be interesting.

My experience, over twenty years, is just the opposite. None of the leaders from when I started are around playing open. I took off five years. When I left, Doss and Feldberg were the top dogs.
When I came back it was completely different. PM and RW were the top guys. Since then two or three players have climbed into the elite, a number of mid-elite players have won NTs and the number of new to young guys beating on the door amazes me.

 

[Karl]

Why not do things / find ways to grow "overall participation" and not worry if it's "pro" or "am"?

 

[1978]

Seems like you're saying the am will not get any better when/if he goes pro. One of my points is that they don't feel the need to get better due to the am comfy funny money. Now if there was no funny money maybe they would try to get better...quicker. ? ? ? But yah..the discussion ran it's course. Thank you for your insight.

Common but flawed argument used when belittling amateurs.

After 1 round the ams just filter down to where ever they normally fit in based on their skill rating, other ams that were guilted pro. at best they have 1 round to see a pro shred a course with skills they cant even comprehend.

So now you have a 950 rated "pro" playing with other 950 rated pros... the $ pool for the 1000 rated guys goes up.

This does not make players better.
1. there is added pressure because of the increased entry $ and skill level of the top end, this causes unforced errors.
2. Watching better players execute shots that you aren't an expert in doesn't make you better, it makes you do dumb things and actually score worse.

 

[Future_Primitive]

Might be good to stop calling them "Pro" and "Am" and start incorporating "Open" into the mix. Just because somebody plays Open doesn't make them a "Pro", save that term for actual touring Pros trying to make a living in Disc Golf. Some folks in Open have no intention of going Pro either, they are just sick of getting plastic and would rather take a chance at taking home cash money. Others are those few folks trying hard to get to that touring level, so you have a mix of future Pros and lifetime Open players.

While I am not a fan of Steve Dodge I don't have a problem with a person trying to build a Pro tour. Better off that some individual tries this and spends his/her time working hard to build the tour. Drumming up sponsors, video coverage, arranging the schedule, promoting it and what not. Shouldn't be the work of the PDGA despite the "P" on their name. Let this individual build up a team and drive the Pro growth.

Let the PDGA focus on the Ams and grass roots stuff. Support TD's that put on PDGA sanctioned events, focus on weeding out the bad ones and highlighting the ones doing great things for the sport. As Karl noted above, just grow the participation and the growth will filter down to both sides. No need to take a piece or two of the AM pie for the Pros, just make the whole damn pie bigger for everyone.

 

[dorseymatt]

I started playing mostly open two years ago, and I was a mid 940s player. I decided that if I played well, I'd rather take cash than discs, which I didn't need anymore. I enjoyed the experience of playing with, generally, better, experienced players and not having the pressure to WIN, but to just play well.
In the last 9 months, I have raised my rating to 965 and now have two Open wins, both C-tiers. I tend to cash when I play reasonably well. Very happy with my decision. FWIW, I'm 38 years old.

 

[araytx]

Appreciate the comments btw. I agree with most of your comments except for this one....

"If you take away payouts and charge $20 for Am tournaments, but $80 for pro, there's still little financial incentive to pay $80 and not cash."

Charge $20.00 for the ams and the only thing you get is a trophy if you win, nothing else. So everyone is happy except the ones that want something more for their win. Sure your proposed $20.00am vs $80.00pro probably wouldn't persuade too many to play pro, but what if the prices were the same for both am or pro divisions? Since the better ams wouldn't win any merch, etc, perhaps they might consider playing pro. I sometimes wonder if that's what DD is doing here in the DFW area where at least in the age protected divisions they are charging the same for am/pro.

Again, I can't speak to anything but what I know. I "think" that DD's entry fee system here in the DFW area was to encourage pre-registration. I was around through several iterations, and they found that charging a very low amount caused fewer pre-registrations, even for the popular tourneys with more people than not bum-rushing to get in on the day before and day of. [Everyone can make their own decision on whether that is a good reason or not.] Charging too much just caused the event not to come close to filling. So, given the saturation of events in this area of Texas, they just found the "sweet spot" of making it worth the player's while to pre-register without it being too expensive. I think that if someone tried the Am only $20 entry fee trophy only event around here, that they would find virtually few pre-registrations and a whole bunch of people showing up trying to get in -- which is a b---- for the TDs. But if you'll help with those "day of" registrations I'll volunteer us giving it a shot.

Your premise assumes that the reason "to play Am" and the reason "not to play pro" are the same thing. They may not be. I'd love to play pro at every event, and only keep my Am status to be able to play in Am Worlds. As a 940-rated, over 55 player I can compete in most events, even win occasionally if I am super hot. But with the new rules I am essentially playing trophy only pro at the higher entry fee when it is an A-tier. Because I can no longer get anything, even if I beat all the pros at that event. Then add in "series" where some are A-tier and some are B-tier, and it's the same thing. Then there are others who play Am all the time because that's just where they are comfortable. I know many. They feel that they will always play Am no matter how "good" they get, because the pro divisions (in their mind) is for people who can spend a lot of time practicing and playing disc golf, whereas they are solely weekend warriors -- many of whom it's only for 1 or 2 weekends a month.

The motherlode of disc golf demographics:

https://www.pdga.com/demographics

From 2016 to 2018, pro memberships increased from 7,463 to 9,410 (26% over 2 years)

Pro purses increases from $3.9 million o $4.9 million (about the same)

I'd guess that pro entries in tournaments increased along with these, though in a quick glance I can't put my finger on them.

The demographics tell a lot, but they don't delineate the full-time pros versus local pros vs other pros -- I think all "pros" are not necessarily of the same ilk.

 

[DavidSauls]

The demographics tell a lot, but they don't delineate the full-time pros versus local pros vs other pros -- I think all "pros" are not necessarily of the same ilk.

I agree, but I gather this thread was about local or regional pros. I doubt the top pros are complaining that Ams should quit getting stuff so they'll move up. And the demographics must be dominated by local/regional pros, and at least shows that "growth" isn't being stifled too much there.

 

[zgmc]

The problem is how do we break the sport of that after it is already established? TD's are afraid of running players off. Big events like Glass Blown Open have lavish head-spinning player's packs. It doesn't seem like it's going to change any time soon.

I dont know.. $80-$90 entry fees are going to run more players off than anything. I was a bit shocked to see those fees for some local tourneys that are coming up.. I never would have played in any tourneys if the cost was that damn high, and now I guess I wont be participating in any ever again.