What world do you live in? - hmm.. I guess I believed all the bs the local DFW peeps were telling me. That the TD never used am funds for the pro divisions. Now if you're saying the TD profits from the am entry fees (and he can do whatever he wants with the profits) and gives it to the pro divisions, I don't see a problem with that. Keep in mind.. I am not a fan of player packs or merch payouts.
-
Discover new ways to elevate your game with the updated DGCourseReview app!
It's entirely free and enhanced with features shaped by user feedback to ensure your best experience on the course. (App Store or Google Play)
Am Payouts stifle pro growth?
- Thread starter DiscFifty
- Start date
What world do you live in? - hmm.. I guess I believed all the bs the local DFW peeps were telling me. That the TD never used am funds for the pro divisions. Now if you're saying the TD profits from the am entry fees (and he can do whatever he wants with the profits) and gives it to the pro divisions, I don't see a problem with that. Keep in mind.. I am not a fan of player packs or merch payouts.
ok.. again.. still sounds like the easy solution is to not have pro divisions offered in the local am tournament scene. I guess I don't see how growing the pro side doesn't grow the sport. Still seems strange so many ams don't want to see the pro side grow more. Again.. I am not a pro, I could care less about player packs or winning merch. But I would like to see the pro side of the sport grow more.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
hmm... if you're logic is sound then why doesn't the TD just not have pro divisions for said big events?
Many reasons and they differ from one place/person to the next. Altruism and ego would be two of the foremost.
But the pro side is growing, already. Whether you're thinking of the top pro levels, or your local pros, it is growing with the current system.
What some don't support is undercutting the am side, with the theory that doing so will further grow the pro side. How does growing the pro side by shrinking the am side, grow the sport as a whole? That's all schemes to push ams to go pro, really do.
Not all seed pro with am buyin, but many do. If you see "a X value" for players pack, likely they are playing some game.
Casey 1988
Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!
The only thing Pro players do to help directly is stuff like clinics to help others, though most for a fee $$. Then the Pro if lucky to have a sponsor do often do a help a sponsor or more then one make money so we have the equipment to buy from said company/companies for the sport we like to play.
I can't speak for any company or TDs other than the ones I know. DDC doesn't seed the pro added cash with Am differential. Added cash in their tournaments is only from sponsors. Dave, if you don't believe, go find a tournament with similar am entry fees and number of entrants (DDC vs other), then compare the am payouts. Stevo puts all of it into the Am payout and PPack -- aka all of it goes to the Ams not pros.
If the author of this post is from a different area of the country then I understand where he is coming from. The practice of seeding pro added cash with Am differential is pretty common elsewhere.
My other reply was a bit sarcastic btw. Like I said earlier, imop the TD can do whatever he wants to with his profits. If he wants to put it towards the pro payout, I see zero conflict. However.. the PDGA has done a fkd up job making ams think they deserve anything other than a hand shake when they enter a tournament. Hence my op. I drank that kool-aid for far too long. Same things with merch, player packs, etc. Again I have ZERO problems with TDs making a killing on the tournament, bring the store to the event and sell! I'm just not a fan of forced player packs, merch, etc, being part of the profit chain. Hence the growing interest in providing ways to opt out of player packs, merch, in return for lower entry fees.
Lower entry fees and the option to forgo player's packs are an option the PDGA has made available. They're called C-tiers.
How about we quit blaming the PDGA for something that is the collective fault of the disc golf community for not thinking out of the box? Even unsanctioned events use the "Am scam" model to fund tourneys.
How about we quit blaming the PDGA for something that is the collective fault of the disc golf community for not thinking out of the box? Even unsanctioned events use the "Am scam" model to fund tourneys.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
When the PDGA's standards are based 100% on the amount of trinkets awarded to "amateurs" it is hard to not see them as a contributing factor to the problem. TD's should not have to get creative to find ways to run inexpensive events. There is also an issue imo when a TD cannot run a higher-tiered event without "x" amount of payout regardless of whatever else goes into the event.
Suspect
Birdie Member
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2018
- Messages
- 364
If you don't feel like you are getting your moneys worth, don't join.
I feel lucky to love something like DG, because I spend countless hours on a cheap sport. If some of my entry fee gets put into Pros or goes to the park, I couldn't care less.
Just throwing it out there, what if AMs had a lesser payout due to less of an entry fee? That way everyone can win money. I like player packs, but I have enough stuff as it is haha.
I feel lucky to love something like DG, because I spend countless hours on a cheap sport. If some of my entry fee gets put into Pros or goes to the park, I couldn't care less.
Just throwing it out there, what if AMs had a lesser payout due to less of an entry fee? That way everyone can win money. I like player packs, but I have enough stuff as it is haha.
If ams paid less and therefore got less, even if nothing changed in the way of PDGA requirements and payout structures, I think the sport would be better off. The TDs and clubs that try to fund all their added cash via the margins on the am payout would have to either scale back their events (maybe run a B-tier instead of an A-tier) or do a bit more hustling for outside sponsors to make up the difference.
Pay $20 for $20-25 worth of player pack and payout contribution or pay $50 for $50-60 worth of player pack and payout contribution (plus the tournament experience, of course)...which is going to be more appealing to more am players? They both meet all PDGA requirements.
It blows my mind that there are amateur tournaments in this game charging anywhere close to $100 a head outside of major events like Worlds/USADGC. Just this past weekend there was a semi-local am-only A-tier with entries ranging from $125 for MA1 and $95 for junior divisions. They boasted an added value of $10,000. With that kind of sponsor support, I expect they could have cut the entries in half and filled the event (as it was, they did get 216 players which wasn't a sell out) with everyone still going home extremely happy with their ROI.
Aka TD profit. He can do with it what he pleases. Just the same as if he sold you a disc outright not in a tournament setting.
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2009
- Messages
- 6,855
I think the OP is talking about something like a D?-tier. No players pack, no payout, but with as much of the entry fee going directly to the TD's pocket as needed to make it worth their time and effort.
cheesethin
Birdie Member
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2017
- Messages
- 475
So what are the benefits and to whom, of seeding Pro purse with AM differential? Or put differently, why do TDs do it, what's the motivation? Not questioning their right to, or the morality of it - just interested as to why it is done?
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
About the same as using outside sponsorship, or club funds, or a TD pulling money out of his own pocket.
The benefits, to whom? Well, the top half of the pro field, of course.
The motivation? As Biscoe said somewhere, it's something between altruism and ego, that makes people want to run tournaments at all, and particularly to have pros attend.
Improbably
Eagle Member
With a B-tier it's possible to offer a bargain event for $15-20 and fulfill the $10 minimum players pack requirement. Others have mentioned bargain C-tiers, has anyone done or heard of a bargain B-tier?
Taking it one step further an A-tier could work on paper for a $20-25 entry, but would the PDGA approve such unorthodoxy even if all requirements were met. . .
:clap:
I've run a "bargain" B-tier for years...has been $20 for any am division, but I went up to $25 this year. Sold out faster than ever in spite of the increase. The key thing is I don't rely on making any money off the player packs (no payouts). Instead I do a bit of hustling for outside sponsorship to cover added pro cash and to bolster the player packs. This year, thanks to sponsorship, ams are getting a $50-55 retail value player pack plus the value of two days of play on a P2P course. And the pros, who also pay a "bargain" entry of $35-50 (MPO pays more than the rest) are going to get a near 200% payout without me having to come up with much more than the minimum required added cash. The key thing is that the event sells out without me making any promises with regard to sponsorship, especially for the ams. All I'm promising is a player pack equal to their entry (so basically a disc plus the value of two days of play) and it sells out in less than a day.
I also run a C-tier that meets all the requirements of a B-tier except added pro cash. $15 am entries with a player pack of $10-12 retail value (plus the value of a day on a P2P course). Pros (paying $25-30) usually play for a purse with $100-150 added. Also consistently sells out.
It definitely can be done. I think too many TDs are more concerned with "feeding the beast" with big payouts (am and pro) so they keep going up on entry fees to create bigger overall numbers rather than buck trends and provide the same or better bang for the buck on a smaller scale.
Last edited:
Improbably
Eagle Member
So is your interest in cheaper AM side events catering to people who don't care from players packs and merch prizes?
Doesn't seem to mesh with how you started this thread. AMs who are happy paying a bargain entry to play for trophy only and no players pack aren't going to pay a lot more for no chance in PRO. Many of the "local pro" players I know have INT ratings and are only playing PRO to get out from under the AM Scam. The players packs and merch prizes many people have little interest in encourage PRO side growth.
Similar threads
