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Looks a bit stiff and rigid. Do you have a big sledgehammer?
Breaking Bad Timing Habit
- Thread starter Melonhusk
- Start date
I have a medium sledgehammer, 4lbs, like I used in this old video:
Would that work? It is pretty heavy for me when I'm doing swing drills that are trying to simulate a throwing motion, for me the small hammer is easier to work with - though I know the whole point is for it to be heavy! I don't have a long handled one unfortunately, been keeping my eye out for a cheap one.
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2008
- Messages
- 21,923
I'm assuming not much has changed.
1. Toss/heave the sledge hammer straight back away from you, do not curl/wrap/hug the arm/hammer around yourself.
2. Note how your front heel/hip spin out and open up into frame 2 shifting from in front, while I'm backing into the plant/shifting from behind.
3/4. Note how you extend your elbow early and your head drops straight down while hips slide forward. Note how my elbow leads ahead of the body and my head flows forward with the swing.
1. Toss/heave the sledge hammer straight back away from you, do not curl/wrap/hug the arm/hammer around yourself.
2. Note how your front heel/hip spin out and open up into frame 2 shifting from in front, while I'm backing into the plant/shifting from behind.
3/4. Note how you extend your elbow early and your head drops straight down while hips slide forward. Note how my elbow leads ahead of the body and my head flows forward with the swing.
Worked with my heavy hammer, also a golf club I was just able to grab for cheap this weekend. Feels great to swing the golf club, light and heavy at the same time.
Not really liking what I was able to do, but maybe inching in the right direction? Seems like there's too much slack, I'm trying to shift forward as the weight is still moving back but it looks like it's not quite happening yet.
Not really liking what I was able to do, but maybe inching in the right direction? Seems like there's too much slack, I'm trying to shift forward as the weight is still moving back but it looks like it's not quite happening yet.
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
I was talking to someone in real time earlier watching him struggle with the "tilted balance" and had him do this drill while I watched him.
I've been kind of surprised at what I'm learning when I do this with people live. Most people can in fact stand on one leg when first asked, but they struggle with the balance when they have to balance with the unweighted knee allllll the way touching their weight-bearing knee. They don't want to get as tilted as Pratt, and they don't want to have as much natural side bend as he has. Then when I get them to do it, they struggle to maintain the balance at first even with posture/mechanics tweaks. I don't think that's surprising at all for the average adult because they never really need to move this way so deeply.
That's how wiggins is balanced each way, believe it or not:
Simple suggestion: try to end up like Pratt completely balanced each way, pause in each direction until you feel steady. It will probably feel unsteady at first if you go as deep as Pratt or Wiggins. Then do the "same" in your hammer throws again.
I've been kind of surprised at what I'm learning when I do this with people live. Most people can in fact stand on one leg when first asked, but they struggle with the balance when they have to balance with the unweighted knee allllll the way touching their weight-bearing knee. They don't want to get as tilted as Pratt, and they don't want to have as much natural side bend as he has. Then when I get them to do it, they struggle to maintain the balance at first even with posture/mechanics tweaks. I don't think that's surprising at all for the average adult because they never really need to move this way so deeply.
That's how wiggins is balanced each way, believe it or not:
Simple suggestion: try to end up like Pratt completely balanced each way, pause in each direction until you feel steady. It will probably feel unsteady at first if you go as deep as Pratt or Wiggins. Then do the "same" in your hammer throws again.
Attachments
I was talking to someone in real time earlier watching him struggle with the "tilted balance" and had him do this drill while I watched him.
I've been kind of surprised at what I'm learning when I do this with people live. Most people can in fact stand on one leg when first asked, but they struggle with the balance when they have to balance with the unweighted knee allllll the way touching their weight-bearing knee. They don't want to get as tilted as Pratt, and they don't want to have as much natural side bend as he has. Then when I get them to do it, they struggle to maintain the balance at first even with posture/mechanics tweaks. I don't think that's surprising at all for the average adult because they never really need to move this way so deeply.
View attachment 336007
That's how wiggins is balanced each way, believe it or not:
View attachment 336008
View attachment 336009
Simple suggestion: try to end up like Pratt completely balanced each way, pause in each direction until you feel steady. It will probably feel unsteady at first if you go as deep as Pratt or Wiggins. Then do the "same" in your hammer throws again.
Think I made some progress off this! I think the biggest thing was just understanding the connection between side bend and balance. Still definitely some problems, but I think there's less slack in transition, the hammers were going further, and I usually felt very balanced and upright on my front leg after release.
After snooping around in others' form threads for inspiration I also did some of Loopghost's windmill brick drill, as I thought it might help my feet. I think it's the closest a drill has been able to get me to high level-looking footwork, when I do it slow motion in a mirror, but when I go full speed I still tend to leak over to the west and to plant with my core disengaged.
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
Trending better dude.
Pratt drill: next try to keep your shoulders a bit more squared up toward the camera on the "backswing" side, still balanced. Don't want to lose the "pressure" in the coil phase. Then when you add the disc it will hopefully be clearer where the most powerful balanced coil is.
Pratt drill: next try to keep your shoulders a bit more squared up toward the camera on the "backswing" side, still balanced. Don't want to lose the "pressure" in the coil phase. Then when you add the disc it will hopefully be clearer where the most powerful balanced coil is.
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
Yeah just wanted to confirm it's the same issue in every move. Work on Pratt balance squared up on rear side first.
Also when you toss hammers you do still tend to have some spine extension - relax a little more at the lumber/get slightly more "seated".
Also when you toss hammers you do still tend to have some spine extension - relax a little more at the lumber/get slightly more "seated".
Thanks! Just to clarify, what should I look for in the swings to know that the change in the Pratt drill is translating? I definitely see what you mean when it comes to the Pratt drill, how my shoulders aren't square, but what issue is that causing when it comes to the hammer tosses?
Definitely hear you on the lower spine thing! Just a constant struggle there, but I'm doing lots of core work to try to make my abs a bit more eager to engage and take the load off my lower back.
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
I still really like how Clement talks about it. Right now your move looks like what Shawn Clement calls "blowing the side of the pressure cooker" out the back to me.
I'll share the concept in my move since I have been through a lot there.
This angle isn't ideal and we've discovered my drive leg leverage is atypical and I keep fussing with it a bit, so SW is below too - note in my new "Waltz" prep step watch how I bring back the disc into the "chest trapped" posture. I'm standing tall and balanced on my right leg, then moving off with whole body balanced tilt (like Pratt) into the first step (my tilt is a bit wrong as I land in the x-step so ignore that). You need to keep the disc "trapped" by your chest or you will tend to tip instead of shift/lose leverage and balance.
Pratt balance - I am a little deeper into it as I step back and then step forward (like Waltz).
Disc is "trapped" by the chest & shoulder/arm unit:
Here's kind of the peak of your "Pressure cooker blowing out the side" a bit. Notice how your plant knee is farther away from the target than the leading hip, and your plant heel is closer to the target than your toes. Compare your plant leg to my plant leg. Technically you are swinging back "over the top" of your drive leg and never really balanced on it and thus tipping off. It's the same thing as your Pratt drill so probably worth simplifying it to see and feel what I mean there.
This is also why your hammer backswing took you away from the target off balance in that one swing when you gave it a good heave- if you brace the backswing correctly that really shouldn't happen.
Instead it should coil you tighter and deeper against the drive leg building up torque through your core and rear leg.
Pratt drill showing the same thing:
Pressure going out the side/opening over the top of the rear hip (bad):
Pratt's backswing would be balanced and braced up if he heaved it back (good)
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Just dropping in to tell you that you're doing awesome man! Great inspiration and stuff to get from your thread!
The golf club swing looks good and is definitely something I need to get my hand on too.
If I were to give any tip, you might want to let the hammer do more of the work on the forward "swing/throw". It looks like you yank on it too early, instead of letting it carry its own momentum and adding to it at the right time.
Definitely one of the best form threads in here. Good stuff
The golf club swing looks good and is definitely something I need to get my hand on too.
If I were to give any tip, you might want to let the hammer do more of the work on the forward "swing/throw". It looks like you yank on it too early, instead of letting it carry its own momentum and adding to it at the right time.
Definitely one of the best form threads in here. Good stuff
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
Last night I was having an older gentlemen work from the "hammer pound and back" focusing on the leverage through the wrist at the very end, then "from the ground up" pumping the hammer with the dingle arm in the same session. He was starting to get the point right away, but of course it looked awkward the first time. Having some trouble figuring out what part was momentum, what part was body posture and sequence at first. It started to get better within 5 minutes of fussing and nudging in real time. Then I stopped tampering and he said he liked how much better it felt and wanted to follow up in a couple weeks (wise guy from a motor learning perspective!).
I'm starting to think that a more general fundamental thing people struggle with is connecting that strange action through the wrist at the end with the full body pump and momentum. It's a weird balance of kind of "letting it go" but remaining in control to help leverage the thing smoothly out just "behind" the momentum of the hammer or arm/disc unit.
That's basically what's been happening on the forum in the past few days with all the chatter about the arm mechanics. I kind of can't really think of it easily without considering a full arm-body move at this point. It's understandably confusing to talk about when you are trying to discuss specific pieces of the motion, so natural swing aids are nice to have ;-)
I'm starting to think that a more general fundamental thing people struggle with is connecting that strange action through the wrist at the end with the full body pump and momentum. It's a weird balance of kind of "letting it go" but remaining in control to help leverage the thing smoothly out just "behind" the momentum of the hammer or arm/disc unit.
That's basically what's been happening on the forum in the past few days with all the chatter about the arm mechanics. I kind of can't really think of it easily without considering a full arm-body move at this point. It's understandably confusing to talk about when you are trying to discuss specific pieces of the motion, so natural swing aids are nice to have ;-)
You know I love heavy objects and how much they teach "feel" in regards to a normal disc golf swing/throw.
That feeling when it just clicks and you feel the "heavy hand" with a disc in the end, it's magical. It might just last less then a split second, but I feel like it last forever and I'm clinging on to dear life lol.
@Melonhusk is doing great!
I need to get back to form work lol
That feeling when it just clicks and you feel the "heavy hand" with a disc in the end, it's magical. It might just last less then a split second, but I feel like it last forever and I'm clinging on to dear life lol.
@Melonhusk is doing great!
I need to get back to form work lol
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
Yes he is!
I find it really easy to see the "heavy hand" in McBeth's form especially when he slows down. It helps me the most when I imagine him the most in my "address" position or mess around with my mallet. Watch and "feel" his heavy arm and "hammer pound" when he throws ~300'.
Then when he adds momentum, smash.
I find it really easy to see the "heavy hand" in McBeth's form especially when he slows down. It helps me the most when I imagine him the most in my "address" position or mess around with my mallet. Watch and "feel" his heavy arm and "hammer pound" when he throws ~300'.
Then when he adds momentum, smash.
Thanks! Definitely hear you on the shoulder yank on the hammer throws, and I do that with the disc too. I think sometimes I don't trust myself to swing something so heavy (heavy once it gets some momentum behind it, at least), and I start tensing up thinking how could I possibly throw this without getting every little muscle involved. I recommend a golf club for sure! Can be a little awkward because of the length, but I think the fact that the weight is so far away from where you're holding it amplifies the feedback you get from it.
What do you think of all that supinating at the hit stuff, Brychanus? Maybe I'm in the wrong thread...but with the little I know it seems like it runs counter to ideas that seem to have a pretty good track record of getting people (or at least, me) to feel the right feels. My take - of course the wrist has to supinate to throw the disc backhand, or pronate to throw forehand. But what I've gotten from the myriad of hammer drills I've seen around online, for both forehand and backhand, is that you store up some amount of energy by resisting that supination/pronation, even if only to the extent of keeping a neutral wrist. I think you see some amount of evidence in this in elite throwers, in the number of pros whose wrists roll over palm down post release on backhand, or palm up on forehand. It doesn't mean they were trying to "throw with pronation (in the case of backhand)", but it seems to me like it could mean they were trying to resist that supination as long as they could.
I coach ultimate, and a lot of people have success with the cue to throw forehands with their palm up (thumb behind hammer handle). Ricky's talked about throwing forehands with his palm up. Nobody on film (even Ricky) releases a forehand with their palm up, but Ricky does finish all his forehand follow throughs with his palm up - after he releases the disc, his palm snaps back up, because (I guess) he was trying to keep it there all along.
Of course, where this gets confusing is wrist vs shoulder rotation. I throw an ultimate forehand with a pretty neutral wrist, I think, but I definitely externally rotate my shoulder in the load, which could bring my palm up without any supination at the wrist. Either way, I throw a frisbee forehand exactly like I throw a hammer forehand. Literally nothing changes except the grip, it's pretty cool how 1:1 it is.
Anyway, here's some more drills!
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
*Long reply here. Tried to be thorough...
TL;DR: yeah, I guess I believe this is complicated to write and mechanically "much easier done than said" to an extent.
I went a little quiet on the main threads because I think people are mixing coaching cues, mechanics, and anatomical words referring to somewhat different phases and aspects of the move, and I think maybe at least slightly different fundamental ideas about what is going on. One problem when you talk about cues in a video or text is that everyone will see whatever they want to see in it even if it is "right." I also wanted to make sure I didn't further confuse myself or the conversation so I stopped to learn more about it. So I would love to sidebar here and see what you or others think as long as we recognize this is mechanics chatter and not really a coaching point per se lol.
I had a side conversation with SocraDeez who always has interesting little motion experiments to share. He pointed out that if you brace on your plant foot and turn a key counterclockwise (like physically try it on a door heading INTO the "pocket"), you'll notice that your brace foot will go through a pronation to supination phase "leading" the arm into the action, just like the arm tends to if you carry the key turn forward through the release point (and the disc golf backhand). Furthermore, counterclockwise turn into the pocket is a nice way to intuitively feel why the elbow wants to go up with the pronation- you get into a much stronger posture overall even though you're just turning a dinky (literal) key.
What about the phase where the arm is continuing out of the pocket? In the "turn the key" thread people are mostly talking about the end of the action, plus a few other things. But let's just talk about "carrying through" the action from the pocket. What would produce the most overall power? People aren't talking much about the "resistive" component against supination (BH direction) you mentioned, which is then "released" and involves the tendon "bounce" people talk about, probably some fascial load and unload, and some muscular acceleration since stretched forearm muscles will contract harder and faster. I suspect that's part of the appearance of "clamping down" with a clearly resisting/contracting forearm in photos of top throwers - I see it too in my forearm as I approach my peak throwing speed if I'm throwing well. This is what "pounding the hammer out" from the pocket means, more or less. I do think people interpret this whole part differently but I always just think about it as part of the holistic action, which is also why you need to be careful exaggerating any one part of it too far. SocraDeez also pointed out that it is possible that some people are interpreting where the "nose" of the disc is in the exact opposite way of a hammer pound. Sheep was talking about that a bit. There is a substantial overall difference to thinking of the nose as the "hammer head" coming around, vs something that is being towed through the motion with the fingertips and then supinated late causing the disc to "flip over" the wrist. In the latter case, the disc nose will only come around and out part way rather than "leverage fully out" like a hammer head smash. Can both actions be used in DG form? That was where I was teasing at two different ways to complete several types of natural actions and hesitated to weigh in. Obviously I'm strongly influenced by the arm/disc "unit" way of approaching it, however, and I convinced myself all over again that the hammer model is more likely far more correct. If you do not pound the hammer, you lose some of that important elastic loading and unloading process, and you do not get the nose of the disc to come all the way around like a hammer head into the release point.
Here's one more little puzzle for you. Arms aren't hinges- humerus has one end as a ball and socket, and our forearms are especially weird. Notice that as the arm pronates, the bones cross. As it supinated, they uncross.
X-es are structurally robust, and crossing and uncrossing is one of the strongest aspects of biology. In DG you see it (at least) in the X-step, the Oblique slings, and the Forearm. You are initially resisting part of that uncrossing effect, and as it is released, its torque is more or less evident or abrupt from person to person, but (probably) always significantly part of the high-level throw.
Finally, you need to consider the leverage profile and how it is transmitted through the fingers to the disc to understand the pronation effect near the end of the move/into the release, I think. This is the weirdest part of it to me, but I think I understand it better today after throwing stuff slower. I struggled to understand Klein vs. Gurthie but I think part of what is happening is since Klein's swing plane is very shallow or a flattish pendulum arc and Gurthie's is very circular, and GG starts by slightly leaning away and lands braced like a golfer whereas Klein take the whole move more aggressively forward "over" his brace - not quite "over the top," but it's posturally different. If they are both "pounding the hammer" through their move however, I think the way the wrist and finger pressure works explains the difference in their moves (possibly) because the disc has mass accelerating, and the hand is in effect "resisting against" the disc in a more circular (Gurthie) vs. a shallower (Klein) wave. There is a big difference between an in-leverage and out-of-leverage action through the end of the move, which significantly involves the wrist action mentioned above and figure pressures into the "hammer pound." For me, the one as described above is clearly and dramatically better than the other, ~8-10mph difference. It also helps link actions like backstroke, push a quarter on a tabletop with your thumb, basketball chest pass, back fist/backhand where the emphasis on the late action explains the differences on the "same" or very similar overall move. Difference is the weird force interaction as the disc overwhelms the resistance and pivots out.
So I suppose my mental model of what the arm is doing is something like the above. Chopping it into smaller actions is conceptually and mechanically risky. I do think some people need individual cues sometimes and some people are doing all kinds of things that interfere with this action and/or harm themselves. When I work live with people I learned that people can immediately often tell the difference in arm actions pretty quickly with hammers, but it can take a little back and forth at first. Then when you see breaks in the chain you get more creative & specific.
Phew! How'd I do?
"Edit: coaching point: also mess around with windmilling hammers forward and reverse direction on your elbow in the backhand direction focusing on the forearm and wrist each time. Notice when and why the late action involves some supination for the strongest pounds.
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I think I'm picking up what you're putting down, and I think I agree, to the extent that I feel good about having an opinion on anything like this that I understand so little about. It immediately reminded me of this thread:
DFP Thumb Grip
Ah man I always stopped watching that video after MJ explained his grip, but didn't realize the second to last guy is *Bard Soleng! :doh: He uses a variation of the DFP thumb grip, where his thumbnail will actually vertically jam/press down into the flight plate. His mids (super beat in comets...
www.dgcoursereview.com
It's all worth reading if you haven't, but HUB's comment on long axis rotation and the linked articles RFrance posted following that blew my mind and really got me to understand what I was seeing in high level ultimate throwers' forehands. The thread is mostly talking about backhands though, and the wrist roll under/thumb behind the handle pound/push the coin feel.
Thanks for this! By reverse direction on my elbow in the backhand direction, do you mean something like while swinging towards target, externally rotate my shoulder?
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
Nice, thanks, I'll revisit that one!I think I'm picking up what you're putting down, and I think I agree, to the extent that I feel good about having an opinion on anything like this that I understand so little about. It immediately reminded me of this thread:
DFP Thumb Grip
Ah man I always stopped watching that video after MJ explained his grip, but didn't realize the second to last guy is *Bard Soleng! :doh: He uses a variation of the DFP thumb grip, where his thumbnail will actually vertically jam/press down into the flight plate. His mids (super beat in comets...
It's all worth reading if you haven't, but HUB's comment on long axis rotation and the linked articles RFrance posted following that blew my mind and really got me to understand what I was seeing in high level ultimate throwers' forehands. The thread is mostly talking about backhands though, and the wrist roll under/thumb behind the handle pound/push the coin feel.
Thanks for this! By reverse direction on my elbow in the backhand direction, do you mean something like while swinging towards target, externally rotate my shoulder?
Try to stay internally rotated/-ing at the shoulder, then gently start windmilling the hammer forward from the elbow like in seabas22 backhand pump. Then windmill it more from the elbow like a pendulum pump. Notice how your body wants to brace either way you do it, and how to keep power coming through the shoulder.
Sorry to sidestep your advice for the moment Brychanus, I will get to windmilling soon, but on Monday I was cleared to throw discs full go again and I thought I'd see where I'm at with that. I think the hammer tosses have done me good and I'm liking some of what I'm seeing - but boy do I need to work on that pelvic tilt/spin extension issue, that was possibly even worse than usual.
Monday also got me thinking that my issues with the hammer pound might be related to my issues with my finger. What I'm going through with my finger is that basically every time I throw a golf disc, the disc rips past the last digit of my middle finger in a very uncomfortable and unnatural way. This started some time around November, and I'm 90% sure it led to my finger sprain/tendon injury/whatever it is. I'm desperately trying to figure out how to make that stop, because I can only imagine I'm just going to get it hurt again otherwise.
The thing is that it doesn't bother me to throw frisbees; my middle finger doesn't get in the way at all. I thought that was just because I'm usually not throwing them very hard, but it clicked for me yesterday that there might be another reason: a short pass with a frisbee is really all hammer pound; you don't use much of a reach back unless you're going for a really huge throw. And when I throw one of those short passes, my hand rotates to palm down as I'm releasing the disc so that my middle finger is out of the way; the disc rips off of my pointer and thumb. A little hard to describe, but I hope this video shows the action I'm talking about:
Is this your understanding of the hammer pound/the thumb sliding a coin on the table/etc? If so, at least I already know what I'm going for - but I man I have a hard time feeling that same motion when there's so much momentum going into the throw, with a full backswing etc. May need to spend a lot more time with standstills, using increasing amounts of momentum. Anyway, here's a video of throws!
Monday also got me thinking that my issues with the hammer pound might be related to my issues with my finger. What I'm going through with my finger is that basically every time I throw a golf disc, the disc rips past the last digit of my middle finger in a very uncomfortable and unnatural way. This started some time around November, and I'm 90% sure it led to my finger sprain/tendon injury/whatever it is. I'm desperately trying to figure out how to make that stop, because I can only imagine I'm just going to get it hurt again otherwise.
The thing is that it doesn't bother me to throw frisbees; my middle finger doesn't get in the way at all. I thought that was just because I'm usually not throwing them very hard, but it clicked for me yesterday that there might be another reason: a short pass with a frisbee is really all hammer pound; you don't use much of a reach back unless you're going for a really huge throw. And when I throw one of those short passes, my hand rotates to palm down as I'm releasing the disc so that my middle finger is out of the way; the disc rips off of my pointer and thumb. A little hard to describe, but I hope this video shows the action I'm talking about:
Is this your understanding of the hammer pound/the thumb sliding a coin on the table/etc? If so, at least I already know what I'm going for - but I man I have a hard time feeling that same motion when there's so much momentum going into the throw, with a full backswing etc. May need to spend a lot more time with standstills, using increasing amounts of momentum. Anyway, here's a video of throws!
