Hilariously Bad Backhand Form, Please Advise

[ninjabq]

Been playing for a little over 3 months, and I can't even top 200 feet most of the time. Have spent a ton of time reading this forum, watching videos, trying out drills and different form, and somehow am still terrible! Any advice is greatly appreciated!

In this video I just threw 14 discs. Tried a bunch of different stuff throughout. I don't believe a single one of these went over 200 feet. Only one angle but I doubt more is relevant at this point...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnYKLt_GxE8

 

[Brychanus]

Any sports background?

I've seen worse at 3 months. Good camera angle, no need for slow mo.

Swing plane is too straight and flat.

Hand is not outside disc and the elbow pointed forward like a chicken wing in the setup.

Too much rotation and not enough linear shift.

Too soft and too rotational crush.

The throw functions way more like this than what you're doing. Get out of your head, loosen up, and I want you to get used to swinging more like this:

You need to crush. Drop all your weight into the can abruptly and pump from that leg to lead the swing.






SW22/seabas22 has deep mastery of the details, but remember that what he's really teaching is the big picture of how all those parts work together fluidly to give a high force, easy feeling swing. Get your mass and gravity working on your side first. It is annoying how simple it seems when you start getting it but how hard it can be to do it to a disc.

 

[ninjabq]

Any sports background?

None at all, thanks for noticing!

It is annoying how simple it seems when you start getting it but how hard it can be to do it to a disc.

I definitely feel this... without a disc in my hand I feel like I can move the energy through my arm pretty well, but with the disc in hand it all goes out the window.

Anyway, appreciate all the advice! I went out to the field this morning and threw for an hour with those tips in mind. It's interesting that I felt like I was rotating the arm more downward than before, but on video it doesn't look much different. That being said, I got a few out over 200 feet this time. Once I focused more on keeping my hand outside the disc, the consistency in nose angle and direction of the throw started to come in. Here's a new video to digest:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2yF3EmABQQ

 

[Brychanus]

Still too much rotation and not enough lateral shift in the lower half. Recommend doing the Elephant Walk exactly like he does it being patient to feel the pendulum swinging back and forth and throw it after a few steps.

Also read this thread if you haven't.

Will save you trouble later - think of the Dingle arm like a windmilling motion that swings forward, never strictly down. It is forward relative to your body. Think about how you can convert that windmilling motion to forward momentum in the disc. Even nearly a year in of daily work I still get a lot out of windmilling motions to help smooth out and synchronize the motions against gravity. But if I ever think of literally swinging down it is missing the key point!

 

[Jukeshoe]

I'd suggest checking out grip, too, first couple look like you've got a really odd handle on it.

 

[Brychanus]

^Totally agree. You can check out any number of grip videos. I'm a hammer fan so I like how SW22 talks about it. I always use a modified fan grip like Jenkins' myself unless I'm playing with full rips on drivers. Key in any case is something comfortable where you get good confident leverage on the disc and can keep the nose down, you can get fancy later.

 

[ninjabq]

I'll put some more thought into the grip next time I go out. I did notice the extreme amount of wobble as it releases, which I figured must be grip related. I usually try to do a power grip like this:

Because I was thinking a little about how to solve the wobbly release, I played around with a grip like this today, and that seemed to feel a little more controlled:

I will say that I particularly feel like I have a hard time trying to grip putters in either of these two ways (which is what the first 3 throws were in the last video I posted).

Also I feel like when I focus on grip too much, I hold the disc too tight and can't get any natural swing through the forearm.

 

[ray1970]

Grips are kind of a personal preference but when I figured out my grip it added probably fifty feet of distance to my game.

Everyone likes to focus on footwork, timing, reaching back etc. but the way the disc is gripped can be important so that the disc comes out flat and with some snap/spin.

Not to say there aren't other issues with your form and timing but just pointing out that the last point of contact between you and the disc is your hand so how you grip it definitely makes a difference.

 

[Brychanus]

Agree with ray. Even now little grip weaknesses screw with my form.

ninja, comfort aside, both of those grips look fairly weak and more like you're going to try and flick the disc out like a frisbee rather than annihilate something with a hammer.

A disc golf power shot is much more like leveraging out and throwing a heavy bar or hammer than it is a frisbee pivot. Bodies are really responsive to tool use and holding it with a weak grip usually throws off everything else. Check out that grip video again and compare how you grip it to the way you might hold and swing a hammer. If that doesn't work by itself, hold it in a modified fan grip and focus on making your finger pressure feel like you're gripping a hammer. Pay close attention to the wrist and alignment with the forearm. What's different between you and SW22?

You shouldn't be grabbing the hell out of it either - if you swing a hammer, how would you swing it without muscling to leverage it into a nail? Similar idea here.

The point is not the specific grip - it's how the grip gets your hand and body ready to sling and slash through something.

 

[ninjabq]

Yeah I definitely feel what you're saying about getting the grip right - I more meant that I am bad at focusing on both grip and other stuff at the same time.

Went out this morning and did focus on grip, still having a hard time feeling comfortable holding it like SW22 while tilting the disc such that it lines up with my forearm. It feels tight on the tendons in my wrist.

I mostly focused on the elephant walk drill and throwing an actual hammer today, to try and continue feeling the use of my body weight in the throw.

Will save you trouble later - think of the Dingle arm like a windmilling motion that swings forward, never strictly down. It is forward relative to your body.

Yeah this makes sense to me, especially looking through that thread, thanks for the link!

I took video today but (a.) I accidentally threw slightly off frame so you can't see my hand by the end of the throw, and (b.) all the throws were trash. I was noticeably standing way too upright (more like in the first video I posted to start the thread). After I took the video, I went and threw the discs again but focused on being in the more knees-bent, tilted, athletic position, and the throws came out a lot better - but didn't catch 'em on tape.

Definitely feels like I'm moving in the right direction!

 

[ray1970]

I more meant that I am bad at focusing on both grip and other stuff at the same time.

When I started and was trying to get my form figured out I found that what worked best for me was to work on just one aspect at a time. Trying to work on two or three things just made it very difficult so I would just pick one thing to focus on and try to get that part of my form dialed. Once I felt comfortable with that part of my throw then I picked another part that needed work and focused on that.

 

[Brychanus]

^ Totally. It often takes weeks for the body to fully adapt new habits. I'm impatient as hell and need to remind myself frequently. Confirm that you're performing a good action, then lots and lots of repetition. Find little ways to make it more fun if it seems like a drag.

 

[ninjabq]

Went out to the field today and threw a bunch before my buddy and I played around. Had some pretty nice looking throws, but by the time I got to taking the video my form started to fall apart (probably because of fatigue, I also went out drinking last night and went to the gym right before this lol). All of the throws in this video went anhyzer for some reason.

Focusing on crushing the can and doing the elephant walk with a hammer has been pretty informative. I had one interesting throw today where I planted so hard on my front foot that I toppled over at the end cuz it didn't turn out from under me haha. Probably not ideal to nearly tear my ACL but the feeling was interesting.

Anyway here's the vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqOhxFO20cw

 

[ninjabq]

Have been warming up with hammer tosses, elephant walk w/ hammer, and the "lunchbox" drill and I feel like it's helped me really think about how the disc throw should feel.

Today I focused on being in an athletic stance, grip, the "butt wipe" drill (and generally "rocking the hips forward").

On grip - I played around with this for a while today and found that I feel most comfortable using my middle finger as the "rip" or "anchor" finger. I have a hard time using my index finger as the pressure point to the top of the disc, while still being able to keep the disc in line with my forearm. I do have below-average sized hands, maybe I have an even more-below-average size index finger??? Anyway, gripping it the "new" way (basically the "power grip 1" from Blake T's page on grip), but with the middle finger as the anchor, seems to help a lot with the instability of the disc as it comes out of my hand.

I took the video from a different angle (and from a different spot - hence being too close, oops) today to try and get a better look at my throwing arm during the throw. I have noticed (now and in the past) that I'm not bringing the disc into my chest before the hit, and my elbow seems to get tucked down a bit. What drills/cues can help with this?

Video is at 1/2 speed (also I finally figured out how to embed it lol)

 

[Brychanus]

Full speed is ok. 90 to tee is still best for now.

I see some improvements - I would keep working the same drills, and focus on getting your weight to feel more like it is dropping directly into your plant leg and resisting or pumping the ground. Go slow if you're not used to it, but this is the point of the elephant walk. Can also post that drill to check if you're cheating it a bit

Grip - I have short fingers and especially short index finger too. I bet you are doing something I used to do with the grip too diagonal across the palm and can still grip better including the index finger. Try a grip with the index finger splayed out further ahead on the rim and aligned with the forearm. Get a photo of it with the camera at an angle directly perpendicular to your forearm so we can see how you're holding it. You ultimately really need it to end up somewhat relaxed but much more like getting ready to swing an instrument of death than a frisbee.

 

[ninjabq]

Thanks for the response, don't want this to turn into my personal blog �� Unfortunately didn't see til after I went out this morning.



(to some degree you can see my grip in this video, might not be clear enough to be useful)

My self scouting here: Still not doing a good iob of incorporating reciprocating dingle arm into the actual throw - right after the reach back, my shoulders become flat and ultimately my throwing shoulder drives up instead of more vertically like I'd expect. Probably too much arm involvement? This upward movement is a consequence of not having my body weight driven down onto the plant foot. The other symptom is that my plant leg is clearly not braced well.

When I practice in the living room barefoot, I don't feel like I have this issue. I thought it could be related to my shoes having absolutely zero tread left, whilst throwing in the grass/dirt, so I switched to these hiking shoes just to try, but to no avail haha. Should've known it couldn't be that easy.

I do think being more conscious about my off hand would help with the angle of the weight shift - right now it seems like I just throw it back to get it out of the way, but I think that pulls me back to being more lateral.

I'll definitely focus on this and do the elephant walk video next time I go out!

 

[Brychanus]

Thanks for the response, don't want this to turn into my personal blog

Have you seen my form thread? ;-)

Unfortunately didn't see til after I went out this morning.
YOUTUBE]

(to some degree you can see my grip in this video, might not be clear enough to be useful)

My self scouting here: Still not doing a good iob of incorporating reciprocating dingle arm into the actual throw - right after the reach back, my shoulders become flat and ultimately my throwing shoulder drives up instead of more vertically like I'd expect. Probably too much arm involvement? This upward movement is a consequence of not having my body weight driven down onto the plant foot. The other symptom is that my plant leg is clearly not braced well.

When I practice in the living room barefoot, I don't feel like I have this issue. I thought it could be related to my shoes having absolutely zero tread left, whilst throwing in the grass/dirt, so I switched to these hiking shoes just to try, but to no avail haha. Should've known it couldn't be that easy.

I do think being more conscious about my off hand would help with the angle of the weight shift - right now it seems like I just throw it back to get it out of the way, but I think that pulls me back to being more lateral.

I'll definitely focus on this and do the elephant walk video next time I go out!

Previous post still stands. Just put your off arm elbow near your rear hip for now.

You are trapped behind your front leg in an immoveable horse stance and basically still just trying to rotate your way to victory. Your swing flattens out because you are not rocking back and forth between the legs allowing your center of gravity to move back and forth. If you want the Good Swing, you need to learn to walk before you can run. To learn to walk you need to take your first step and not two.

Fall directly on top of the can and swing.

Watch how seabas swings over his front leg.



Watch how I do the same more crudely.



We're dropping all of our weight directly into the front leg onto the can and pumping or resisting collapsing into the ground with the front leg to lead the swing. It has nothing to do with rotating at the lower spine or hips.

 

[ninjabq]

Here is my normal grip

Some stuff I've played around with:
Splaying the fingers a little more (starting from RB 2 finger grip from old Discraft grip tips vid) - feels firmer in the hand and easier to get in line with forearm, but less pinch

Starting with the disc "above the seam" instead of "in the seam" of the palm, with this I get the best pinch but less stability from the other fingers and more strain on wrist muscles in order to get it in line with forearm

Same "disc above the seam" but with fingers splayed a little bit more (starting from 2 finger grip), pinch feels strongest here but wrist is very pronated

 

[sidewinder22]

I think you mean supinated instead of pronated in your grips above. Something looks weird about the wing angle, like you don't have enough of your hand above the disc.

Your hand is getting ahead of the disc, pulling the leading edge in the power pocket instead of your hand on the outside edge of disc to sling it out later.

 

[ninjabq]

Okay I had an interesting experience this morning.

First of all, the last few sessions I've been focusing mainly on grip because I feel like that is actually a huge issue for me. Second, I played with some friends on Sunday and it went disastrously, feels bad man. Third, I watched this video this video and this video over the weekend.

In the first video Feldberg talks about using the middle fingers for power and the index finger as a guide, and in the second video starting around 7:29 the guy talks about grip and curling the fingers in more and placing the thumb a little more over the disc. I thought "Wow this is it, it all makes sense now!" So this morning I go out with my new grip with the fingers curled in more and thumb more over the disc and pressing more firmly with the middle fingers and... got absolutely no where. In fact I mostly ended up griplocking half of my throws and nearly taking out my shoulder.

Nearing the end of my time I was just mad at the world, thinking "F this, F my hands, F stupid disc golf", etc etc. I was just tossing the discs haphazardly back toward my bag so I could pack up and go home. Since I wasn't trying to actually throw them legitimately, my hand was extremely loose. And then when I threw one of the discs, the looseness led to my fingers tightening right at the end of the toss, and the disc actually went pretty far.

Boom, lightbulb moment. I thought back to another part of the second video (4:47) where he talks about a drill that just involves keeping your arm and wrist loose, no disc, and just tossing it in front of you to cause your fingers to snap. With this in mind, I started actually throwing the discs one more time - but this time keeping my hand and wrist as loose as humanly possible while still being able to keep the disc in hand. BOOM. Discs were flying (reasonably) straight and about as far as I've ever thrown them, with almost no effort.

Crazy how these moments come at the strangest points in time.

Unfortunately I really was out of time, but I will definitely be using this to inform my next field session. Now I just have to figure out how to keep that looseness but with a grip just firm enough to stabilize the disc through the full throwing motion.