Lets Honestly Discuss Tourney Money/Fees

[keith johnson]

I have a scenario for this weekend so people can see some numbers to get an idea of what it takes to run a disc golf tournament.

I chose the Channahon Open (Sunday) since it was in my state, knew the entry fees, and the results are up.

Expenses

$75--PDGA sanctioning for B-Tier
$50--PDGA insurance
$174---$3 PDGA Per Player Fee (58 players)
_____
$299

Income
$684--Advanced Entry $38
$864-- Pro Entry $48
$432--Pro Masters $48

Expenses - Cost for merchandise purchased or paid to disc vendor?
Or is this a play for fun and no prize Event?

 

[smyith]

I have a scenario for this weekend so people can see some numbers to get an idea of what it takes to run a disc golf tournament.

I chose the Channahon Open (Sunday) since it was in my state, knew the entry fees, and the results are up.

Expenses

$75--PDGA sanctioning for B-Tier
$50--PDGA insurance
$174---$3 PDGA Per Player Fee (58 players)
_____
$299

Income
$684--Advanced Entry $38
$864-- Pro Entry $48
$432--Pro Masters $48

Pro Payout $1717
Since they did goofy payouts for AMs there is no way to calculate it.
btw not a fan at all of their payout style at this tournament. a receipt with number of tournament stamped discs/shirts allowed to have. no other choices....weak and noted for future events

so just basing it off of pro payouts and tourn fees thats $2016 paid out. with an income of $1980.

i dont know if theres is money made off the ams at all.

 

[#19325]

Sorry. Accidentally posted early and absolutely despise the 5 minute rule.

Expenses

$75--PDGA sanctioning for B-Tier
$50--PDGA insurance
$174---$3 PDGA Per Player Fee (58 players)
--Trophies ??
--Tournament supplies and copies??
--Course/Pavillion rental fee??
--Misc Expenses??
$1,144--Pro Cash Payouts
$573 --Pro Master Payouts
--Player Pack Cost??
--Am Payouts Cost??
--50/50 Cash CTP Paid out??
--Ace Pool Pait out??
_____
$2016

Income
--Pro Added Cash???
$864-- Pro Entry $48
$432--Pro Masters Entry $48
$684--Advanced Entry $38
$75--Advanced Women Entry $35
$114--Advanced Masters $38
$175--Advanced GrandMasters $35
$105--Advanced Senior GrandMasters $35
--Ace Pool
--50/50 Cash CTP
____
$2449

 

[DocHaole]

For the other AMs out there balking at the high cost low reward of sanctioned events just stick with the local weekly/montlies.

Personally I would rather buy my plastic myself and bring my own lunch and spend less money.

The two things I care about in tourneys

1. Something to play for: be it competitive pride, or just enough prize or cash to make you care.

2. Round ratings to track your progress.

At the La Mirada club events the TD posts the results and player ratings for each event. This is the only club I've played for that does this.

http://www.lmdgc.org/d/2011_results

It takes a dedicated TD to take the time to do all this but I think it's a good model for other clubs to grow the sport on a local level.

 

[baja]

Slight derail here, but I'd like to ask a few things to see the professional end of our sport from a new perspective

how many of you see it from a spectator's point of view? Actually go to a tournament just to watch the pros.. not to play, just to watch? Out of those remaining, how much are you willing to spend to get into the event? what about spending at the event? drinks? food? discs? shirts?

Professional sports get their income from people who actually consume. What are we doing to promote the sport as spectator entertainment? Until that happens, It will be player packs for most and some cash for really good players trying to make a living.

Fire away.

 

[optidiscic]

I keep hearing about PDGA and flexibility......as long as you follow their payout guidelines...xplain this to me.....whats the minimum number of divisions allowed? What is the payout guideline? I would think the per player charge is for the ratings to be processed and thats fine w /me but what is the actual guidelines/rules you must do for pdga sanctioning?

 

[Dave242]

i do not like the increasing attitude amongst TDs that you dont need to know anything unless they think you do. for instance, i asked about what the payouts at a tourny were going to be (which are almosts always posted before the second round begins). I was told that i'll know when everyone else does. that bothers me. it makes me think that their being shady in some way, whether or not they are it gives that impression.

i feel, nix that, i believe the percentage of your entry fee going towards payout should be posted for all to see before the tourny. and along with this your entry fee should go only towards your divisions payout.
i dont know if its actually true or not, but if my entry fee is going towards the pro pot then that makes me mad. in no way should AMs be the ones to support the PROs. thats exploiting the only true fans of DG.

if AMs ever go to trophies only and no payout, i for one will stop playing tournaments and just play local leagues. and i doubt im the only one that feels that way. i truly could care less about trophies and medals, i cant even tell you where all my various medals and trophies are. i think the payouts make DG more unique and ultimately more appealing towards newcomers.
from my experience the average tournament dg'r plays the average tournament for 2 reasons. 1) Friendly competition 2) win plastic/$. 1st place just means more plastic/$, not the pride of being first. now this is completely different for a major event, thats more about being the best on the weekend and then about $.

i think its ridiculous that players parties are taken out of entry fees. i recently learned of this and have since avoided tournaments with players parties. once again why i think the percentage of your entry fee going towards payout should be posted BEFORE the tournament. there are a few tournaments ive always wanted to play and would put up with this to play.

players packs are not necessary, but once again it should be posted on the flyer or tourny info if there will or will not be one. i dont care one way or the other. however, i dont care for the huge players pack, especially since that comes out of the payout. give me the choice of one disc from a few different molds with a sweet tourny stamp on it. thats the most i want/expect. and as i think about it forgo the players pack and improve payout.

It is good to hear how things should be. You should run a few tournaments and see if you can live up to your own expectations on how things should be.

 

[optidiscic]

It is good to hear how things should be. You should run a few tournaments and see if you can live up to your own expectations on how things should be.

I understand your point Dave but aside from use of the word should I don't mind people discussing their ideas and what they value in a tournament...it's kind of what we need is an open honest discussion

 

[jenb]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't know why ams play for payout instead of trophies only.

How many ams here would not play a tourney if there were no players pack or payout other than trophies?

 

[Dave242]

I keep hearing about PDGA and flexibility......as long as you follow their payout guidelines...xplain this to me.....whats the minimum number of divisions allowed? What is the payout guideline? I would think the per player charge is for the ratings to be processed and thats fine w /me but what is the actual guidelines/rules you must do for pdga sanctioning?

There is a very succinct and short document here that explains all of this: http://www.pdga.com/documents/pdga-tour-standards.

One division is the minimum (although if you had zero divisions it would be less work, but some would argue that that is not an event ).

For payouts it is 85% of entry fees at C-Tiers, 100% at B's, 110% at A's (Amateurs). This is a percentage of net, not gross (you take out tournament expenses before coming up with that percentage).

For A-Tiers $1500 needs to be added and $400 can be taken out as management fees. B = $500 added $200 taken out, and C$0 added $100 taken out.

There are no rules for payouts curves - only guidelines: http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/09PayTables.pdf
(although in the sanctioning agreement that the TD signs, he/she agrees to "to pay a minimum of 40% of the Pro field and a minimum of 45% of the Am field as per the pay tables".......but that is not enforceable and is rarely followed - hence why I say it is a guideline).

 

[LukeButch]

plenty of AM vs pro entry fee opinions, but what are peoples thoughts on % of field paid? the VAST majority of TDs use the pdga table and I don't see why(other than its easy to do). I have tried paying out fewer places in Pro in the past, with last cash winning double their entry fee- this had a positive reception. While many players are just trying to cash ("cashing" means more than the $$ amt to them), many like the idea that if they do cash they can actually pay for their expenses for the weekend. Cashing but getting very little more than your entry fee back sucks imo.

Would love to see more TDs try different payout percentages, maybe some will flop but tournament payouts have gone nowhere using PDGA payout table. I also know a majority of touring pros prefer a flat payout at the top, something like 1000, 900, 800 instead of 1300, 900, 500. Everyone hates when tour players complain about payout, but they never try and change HOW they payout.

 

[Dave242]

It is good to hear how things should be. You should run a few tournaments and see if you can live up to your own expectations on how things should be.

I understand your point Dave but aside from use of the word should I don't mind people discussing their ideas and what they value in a tournament...it's kind of what we need is an open honest discussion

Exactly - that is what my comments are.

 

[optidiscic]

plenty of AM vs pro entry fee opinions, but what are peoples thoughts on % of field paid? the VAST majority of TDs use the pdga table and I don't see why(other than its easy to do). I have tried paying out fewer places in Pro in the past, with last cash winning double their entry fee- this had a positive reception. While many players are just trying to cash ("cashing" means more than the $$ amt to them), many like the idea that if they do cash they can actually pay for their expenses for the weekend. Cashing but getting very little more than your entry fee back sucks imo.

Would love to see more TDs try different payout percentages, maybe some will flop but tournament payouts have gone nowhere using PDGA payout table. I also know a majority of touring pros prefer a flat payout at the top, something like 1000, 900, 800 instead of 1300, 900, 500. Everyone hates when tour players complain about payout, but they never try and change HOW they payout.

Interesting......not paying so deep but paying bigger...is this allowed per pdga

 

[optidiscic]

Exactly - that is what my comments are.

touche

 

[Dave242]

In the sanctioning agreement (http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/2011SanctionAgreementV1-3.pdf) on page three TDs are supposed to intial this and sign at the bottom: "Agree to pay a minimum of 40% of the Pro field and a minimum of 45% of the Am field as per the pay tables"

I have skipped initialing some of the items in the past and gotten sanctioning, so I am guessing you can opt out by not initialing and trying different payout curves.

 

[Violets caddy]

I think for a lot of ams things like player packs are a big deal. I've played a dozen tournaments this summer with the closest one being an hour drive (each way) and one almost three hours, often on new to me courses where my odds of getting it handed to me by a local are pretty good. The main goal is improving my game but at the same time to drop $60 in gas + food + entry and come away with absolutely nothing isn't something I want to do. Obviously I'm not proud of my $100 farm classic flip city z nuke, but at least its something. Adding to the purse is always good, for the winner. Making sure everyone, regardless of how well they shot, has something to remember your event by is probably pretty important too. That's my 2 cents, time to go pay the bills...

 

[optidiscic]

"Agree to pay a minimum of 40% of the Pro field and a minimum of 45% of the Am field as per the pay tables"

this is the problem...herein is the demon who spawns all that everyone hates ...and it seems the PDGA is the genesis of said satan



so in a tourney field of 100 pros could I pay the winner 500 bucks and the other 39% a dollar? lol

 

[jenb]

I have seen a 1st place pro's expression morph into rage on viewing the pro payout list andseeing second place get 2/3 as much as 1st place. In this case, only the first place winner was really a pro. The rest were ams playing up to fill the division.

Recalling that bolf pros get 100% of the field payed out, we must also remember that bolf pros must earn their pro cards, and bolf payouts are mostly driven by ad fees from sponsors. With frolf pro fees being mostly driven by entry fees, 50% of the field splits bupkiss. But there is no split of bupkiss that is not even less than bupkiss. Until the added cash becomes much more significant, there is no equitable outcome.

 

[Dave242]

"Agree to pay a minimum of 40% of the Pro field and a minimum of 45% of the Am field as per the pay tables"

this is the problem...herein is the demon who spawns all that everyone hates ...and it seems the PDGA is the genesis of said satan

so in a tourney field of 100 pros could I pay the winner 500 bucks and the other 39% a dollar? lol

No, there are published pay tables: http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/09PayTables.pdf

 

[optidiscic]

No, there are published pay tables: http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/09PayTables.pdf

this makes me wanna puke....isnt there the X-tier where one can do things differently