McBeth vs. Climo

[elmexdela]

There have been some interesting studies about how prime athletes decline. There is often an assumption that someone is "too old" to be a top player anymore, when the reality is usually something psychological. Basically, younger players tend to have less distractions in their lives and be "hungrier" to prove themselves.

Older athletes rarely maintain the single minded focus necessary to stay on top. Sad, but humans get bored of things and want to move on. If Paul's career ends up petering out disappointingly, it might be because he's too rich and too comfortable to keep pushing like he would need to. If that happens, no question Climo will have had the more impressive career.

link the studies

 

[scooby snack]

Climo was the original Beast. He feasted on world championships.

 

[scooby snack]

When Climo was collecting world championships, there was a certain cartoon character who got killed every week.

When Kenny was playing, he killed everyone else.

 

[ChrisWoj]

When Climo was collecting world championships, there was a certain cartoon character who got killed every week.

When Kenny was playing, he killed everyone else.

Its so crazy to think that that was only a part of the show for about 25% of its episodes after being such a regular thing.... And will soon be an even smaller part as the show's archive grows.

 

[Jay Dub]

Them bastards!

 

[scooby snack]

Its so crazy to think that that was only a part of the show for about 25% of its episodes after being such a regular thing.... And will soon be an even smaller part as the show's archive grows.

That was fun to see how he was killed each episode, lol.

 

[araytx]

This makes no sense as a metric. It was relatively easy for Climo to be head and shoulders above his much weaker competition. Go back and watch some really early video of USDGC. The vast majority of those players look like my local advanced tournaments in terms of throwing consistency and putting. Climos legacy is that he was sort of the first serious player and there is a boatload of nostalgia that older players have for his era. Not that he wasn't a tremendous competitor and very good even by today's standard, but that's really all I can say.

I can absolutely agree that the extremely talented field of players that exists today may never have come to be if it weren't for Climo setting the example of what a serious disc golfer could look like. He definitely pushed everyone to become better. In other words, McBeth probably wouldn't be McBeth had Climo not been Climo.

But that doesn't mean that McBeth isn't a better golfer. If everything else was the same, except McBeth never won a single worlds, it would still be clear to me he would win 9 times out of 10 over the course of a 4 round tournament. If your only definition of GOAT is that they have more championships or a higher win percentage, then that is a GOAT I don't really care about, cause I just want to know who was more skilled. You can call Climo the GOAT, and I'll call that a totally irrelevant honor.

See you lose me with that one particular comment, and it seemingly devalues everything else in your argument. You're telling me that a guy who was 1040-something-rated deep into his 30s, we-don't-know-how-highly-rated while winning his first 9 WC's (because ratings hadn't been invented yet) in his 20s, is "not very good by today's standards." Dude, that's the horsehockey that a lot of the younger guys just believe. "There's all these players today who'd beat Climo regularly," is what I hear. Yet only about 4 or 5 of today's players even match or best his rating from his 30s, not his prime. Sorry man, that horsehockey, to me, costs the entire rest of your argument because you won't give Champ his due -- the due that he EARNED unbiasedly. I'll listen to fair and reasonable arguments ... but dude, you said Champ "wasn't very good." I mean knowing what we know now about ratings wouldn't it be EVEN HARDER to get a 1040 against "a bunch of weak, MA1 competitors" tht you guys seem to believe was the whole field? Think about what you'd have to do against a bunch of weak MA1 competitors to get to 1040 consistently. UNLESS, of course, that argument wasn't valid, either.

 

[Innova63]

When Climo was collecting world championships, there was a certain cartoon character who got killed every week.

When Kenny was playing, he killed everyone else.

Back when Climo was winning most everything he entered, it was commonly said by others at the tournament...

"Guess we are all playing for 2nd place..."

So most of us were beat before the tourney started...

 

[Jay Dub]

2nd hand story, I was told this by Rick Rothstein many years ago.

One year the Worlds was 3-4 rounds in and Kenny had not broke onto the lead card yet, or the chase card. At the hotel Rick walked past Climo's room, the door was open so Rick stopped to say, "Hey Champ, WTF"? All he said was, "It's time for Climo golf". From that point he got to the lead card and of course the rest is history.

 

[thecandydan]

... but dude, you said Champ "wasn't very good."

Re-read it . . . he used a double negative . . . he was saying the Champ was very good even by today's standards.

I'm a Kenny = GOAT guy, but the whole argument reminds me of the time when I asked my dad as a kid who's the better player -- Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron? Dad told me "Hank Aaron." I asked "why?" He said "because Babe Ruth is dead."

 

[scooby snack]

Back when Climo was winning most everything he entered, it was commonly said by others at the tournament...

"Guess we are all playing for 2nd place..."

So most of us were beat before the tourney started...

Yeah, that's pretty freakin' dominant. I've heard that very thing from others who've been playing a long time, that when Kenny showed up at a tournament, 1st place was no longer up for grabs. smh in amazement.

 

[araytx]

Re-read it . . . he used a double negative . . . he was saying the Champ was very good even by today's standards.

I'm a Kenny = GOAT guy, but the whole argument reminds me of the time when I asked my dad as a kid who's the better player -- Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron? Dad told me "Hank Aaron." I asked "why?" He said "because Babe Ruth is dead."

Understood. Competely. I accept all "eye test" arguments from people who say McBeth is the best of all time...as long as they also say Patrick Mahomes is the greatest quarterback. It's pretty much the same argument.

 

[dreadlock86]

See you lose me with that one particular comment, and it seemingly devalues everything else in your argument.

for me it's this one

If everything else was the same, except McBeth never won a single worlds, it would still be clear to me he would win 9 times out of 10 over the course of a 4 round tournament.

so, in a fictitious world Paul never wins worlds but wins 90% of all 4 round tournaments. in this fictitious world are there 9 tournaments other than worlds that are 4 rounds? because right now there are 2, USDGC and BSF. how long has it been since there were more than a handful of 4 round events per year?
or does he mean prime Paul would beat prime Climo 90% of the time over 4 rounds because that's equally laughable.

I mean knowing what we know now about ratings wouldn't it be EVEN HARDER to get a 1040 against "a bunch of weak, MA1 competitors" tht you guys seem to believe was the whole field? Think about what you'd have to do against a bunch of weak MA1 competitors to get to 1040 consistently.

plus the fact that there was no money in the game. stick McBeth in the 90's and he doesn't even play disc golf. if you want to compare prime Climo to prime McBeth, you have to insert Climo into the modern era. and then you have to factor for Kenny with better equipment on tougher courses but with the same killer instinct and love for the game and competition.

 

[elmexdela]

idk i kinda like them both

 

[Hampstead]

Having competed against both, I can honestly say they are both significantly better than me.

 

[discerdoo]

Having competed against both, I can honestly say they are both significantly better than me.

Humblebrag of the year right here.

 

[araytx]

This makes no sense as a metric. It was relatively easy for Climo to be head and shoulders above his much weaker competition. Go back and watch some really early video of USDGC. The vast majority of those players look like my local advanced tournaments in terms of throwing consistency and putting. Climos legacy is that he was sort of the first serious player and there is a boatload of nostalgia that older players have for his era. Not that he wasn't a tremendous competitor and very good even by today's standard, but that's really all I can say.
...
.

Re-read it . . . he used a double negative . . . he was saying the Champ was very good even by today's standards.

Also, that's "technically true," now as I re-read it...BUT the context was pretty clear.

He called in-their-primes Ron Russell, Dave Feldberg, Avery Jenkins, Steve Rico, Steve Brinster, Markus Kallstrom, Jesper Lundmark, JohnE McCray, Josh Anthon, Barry Schultz, Matty O., Schwebby, Cam Todd, Kevin McCoy, Scott Stokely, Rick Voakes, Mike Mosher, Mike Randolph, Crazy, Brad Hammock, etc..., and a couple young guns named Nate Doss and Cale Leiviska ,

"...his local MA1 players..." that Champ was playing against.

I actually oversimplified, because winning multiple titles is exponentially more difficult, not algebraically more difficult. It's not my fault that most disc golfers have killed most of their brain cells via their other recreational hobbies.

To state the matter more simply though, a good measure of "greatness" is in how likely it was for the feat to be accomplished. Given the # of disc golfers competing at the time, the odds of a player starting from scratch and winning 12 titles in Climo's era was 1 in 4.6e46. The odds of a player starting from scratch and winning 5 titles in McBeth's era is 1 in 2.4e24. The tipping point depends on how many disc golfers are competing in the future when/if McBeth wins more titles, but 9 for McBeth vs 12 for Climo would make the numbers pretty close.

So in summary, if McBeth gets to 10 then he's the GOAT; if he finishes with 8 or less then it's still Climo. If McBeth ends with 9 then this thread is going to last forever.

Back when Climo was winning most everything he entered, it was commonly said by others at the tournament...

"Guess we are all playing for 2nd place..."

So most of us were beat before the tourney started...

Another factoid for people to remember:

Champ won three Worlds in his 30s. Paul hasn't had that chance yet.
Champ won all 5 of his USDGC's in his 30s. Paul still has that in front of him.
And Champ shot an 1100-rated round at age 40!

Doesn't all-time include ALL?