Offseason Improvement Thread

[sidewinder22]

I agree your mass is not shifting back and forth enough and correct with chin above shoulder/s/neutral. You appear to actually be in posterior pelvic tilt with your back hunched.

 

[TonLocVT]

I agree your mass is not shifting back and forth enough and correct with chin above shoulder/s/neutral. You appear to actually be in posterior pelvic tilt with your back hunched.

Welp. I've put a lot of work into correcting these issues, which has been really difficult. I'm glad I have a camera on my phone with slow motion technology, because this would be near impossible otherwise.

There has been a ton of variables contributing to my shoulder angle, but I've found that correcting it required me to change my follow through and posture through the entire swing (duh).

Regarding the forward movement, I'm starting to understand that it requires a combination of a hershyer movement and pushing off of the rear foot.

What I'm finding from the videos below, is that if I plant in a narrow stance, I don't get the lateral forward movement of my spine. If I get the forward movement of my spine, my planted stance is too wide.

Thoughts on this? I feel like I've had a lot of improvement this weekend, but I'm also kinda stuck at this point.

 

[sidewinder22]

Note in the side view/top pic how your CoM is not moving back much.

Note in the rear view/bottom pic how your backswing is outside your posture and reaching over to left/west side tee, while mine is all Inside Posture right behind my CoM. I'm turned much further back inside my posture and my whole frontside is stacked inline to target like Door Frame Drill/Bow Arrow/Crush the Can. Your frontside is more zigzagging. Door Frame drill your stance is too eastward from the door frame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWasFdvnGio#t=6m5s

 

[TonLocVT]

Note in the side view/top pic how your CoM is not moving back much.

Note in the rear view/bottom pic how your backswing is outside your posture and reaching over to left/west side tee, while mine is all Inside Posture right behind my CoM. I'm turned much further back inside my posture and my whole frontside is stacked inline to target like Door Frame Drill/Bow Arrow/Crush the Can. Your frontside is more zigzagging. Door Frame drill your stance is too eastward from the door frame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWasFdvnGio#t=6m5s

Here is my video of my attempt at rear view corrections:


Here is my video of front view corrections:
Note that I think throws 4&5 are the best. 1&3 are okay, and 2 was bad.

 

[sidewinder22]

Somewhat better. I'm curious on your ape index, you look really lanky.

Looks like you are setting up and ending too narrow stance. You can also start with more staggered stance and reverse into less stagger.

Or you can also do some double dragon.

 

[TonLocVT]

Somewhat better. I'm curious on your ape index, you look really lanky.

Looks like you are setting up and ending too narrow stance. You can also start with more staggered stance and reverse into less stagger.

Or you can also do some double dragon.

I'll look through these and figure out what is most comfortable next chance I get. When you say too narrow, do you mean too closed, or do you meet the distance between my feet in the north south direction?

I am pretty lanky. I'm 6 feet tall with a 78 inch wingspan. Probably why I'm able to get distance with rough form.

 

[sidewinder22]

Width of stance/Narrow = north south.
Stagger = east west.

 

[Brychanus]

I am pretty lanky. I'm 6 feet tall with a 78 inch wingspan.

 

[Brychanus]

I am pretty lanky. I'm 6 feet tall with a 78 inch wingspan. Probably why I'm able to get distance with rough form.

Wow really dude - if smashing is your goal you're in a good spot and I'm here to see it happen .

You also have a really advantageous lever sequence in your upper body.

A little visually off here due to you swinging there and me standing still, but this is just awesome:

Form tip about reverse stride/learning backswing/moving CoG: you have a really similar motion pattern to mine a while back. Your CoG just doesn't want to get all the way back and the rear leg isn't really "boosting" your backswing up from the ground and away from the target. Double dragon definitely helps. You generally want to get used to the backswing and rear leg working together to clear your mass all the way back before shifting forward in reverse stride. People have a lot of trouble with this (some of it is the motion itself and some is flexibility getting all coiled up into the rear side).

Here's another one I became a fan of recently. You want to use a lever like a club or hammer or flexbar and get yourself wrapped all the way back with your face toward your swinging arm. I use this as a warmup motion & stretch now.
https://youtu.be/7IFO7J3AV5Y?t=80

It can also help to swing a heavier weight back with your loose dingle arm so you can really feel it pull you back and brace you into the rear leg. Then you take the weight away and let the weight of the arm/disc do it.

edit: maybe get used to keeping your eyes/head tracking with the disc for now. Can help prevent rushing the front side open and keeping your head balanced over your feet, especially at first. Always worth revisiting:

 

[TonLocVT]

Wow really dude - if smashing is your goal you're in a good spot and I'm here to see it happen .

You also have a really advantageous lever sequence in your upper body.

A little visually off here due to you swinging there and me standing still, but this is just awesome:

Form tip about reverse stride/learning backswing/moving CoG: you have a really similar motion pattern to mine a while back. Your CoG just doesn't want to get all the way back and the rear leg isn't really "boosting" your backswing up from the ground and away from the target. Double dragon definitely helps. You generally want to get used to the backswing and rear leg working together to clear your mass all the way back before shifting forward in reverse stride. People have a lot of trouble with this (some of it is the motion itself and some is flexibility getting all coiled up into the rear side).

Here's another one I became a fan of recently. You want to use a lever like a club or hammer or flexbar and get yourself wrapped all the way back with your face toward your swinging arm. I use this as a warmup motion & stretch now.
https://youtu.be/7IFO7J3AV5Y?t=80

It can also help to swing a heavier weight back with your loose dingle arm so you can really feel it pull you back and brace you into the rear leg. Then you take the weight away and let the weight of the arm/disc do it.

edit: maybe get used to keeping your eyes/head tracking with the disc for now. Can help prevent rushing the front side open and keeping your head balanced over your feet, especially at first. Always worth revisiting:

This is awesome! I'm glad my freakishly long arms will be useful for something.

Between SW22 and your input, It looks like I have a lot of drills to work on over the snowstorm, which is super helpful and awesome.

The one thing I'm stuck on and not clear about is where the pressure of my weight should be during the wind up. From what I've experienced, it would be easy to wind up over my rear foot if I let my weight bleed over to the outside edge of my foot. The problem is, this would contradict the Hogan Power Move.

So, in doing the reverse stride drill, I've been trying to maintain this inside pressure on my rear foot while also getting my center of gravity over my rear foot. Is this the correct way or looking at the pressure distribution at this point?

 

[Brychanus]

This is awesome! I'm glad my freakishly long arms will be useful for something.

Between SW22 and your input, It looks like I have a lot of drills to work on over the snowstorm, which is super helpful and awesome.

The one thing I'm stuck on and not clear about is where the pressure of my weight should be during the wind up. From what I've experienced, it would be easy to wind up over my rear foot if I let my weight bleed over to the outside edge of my foot. The problem is, this would contradict the Hogan Power Move.

So, in doing the reverse stride drill, I've been trying to maintain this inside pressure on my rear foot while also getting my center of gravity over my rear foot. Is this the correct way or looking at the pressure distribution at this point?

I have come to find questions like this really hard to parse in writing since a lot of it depends on what phase you are in the swing. Good visuals can help. This video is pretty good for it in standstill:



And pressure readings from SW's x-step:



https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133543

 

[TonLocVT]

]

This is very cool. So my immediate observations could also be "yeah duh" conclusions if you know anything about throwing, but as I'm in process of rebuilding my form from the ground up, it's important to firmly conclude things like this as fact going forward.

Observation 1 - the pressure is forward on the balls of the feet at all times of the throw, except after release (the main "yeah duh" conclusion l).

Observation 2 - almost all of the pressure is on the front foot before the disc begins even moving forward. This is how the lag is suppose to work. It could be guessed that the movement of the disc should be timed with the weight shift to put momentum into the disc, but then that fails to use your body with a trebuchet effect, losing power.

Observation 3 - all of the weight is on the front heel at the point of release. This is a notable detail as with throwing objects forehand, I've always found it advantageous to be on the toes even after the full weight transfer with ball-sports. I'm not claiming to have good forehand mechanics, though.

I'd love to go to one of these throwing centers someday just to tune my throw. Seems like incredibly valuable technology.

Regarding SW22's double-dragon drill, I've also found the information at the end regarding the power pocket to be incredibly helpful. Not because I've found the pocket to be this mysterious illusive movement, but because I've been really hung up on the forward bend. Mentally, it hasn't made sense to me to bend forward if you don't want your discs to end up hyzer with every throw. As explained, though, you actually rotate your wrist through the throw to get shoulder rotation. Properly timed, rotating of the wrist keeps the disc level to the ground through the forward acceleration of the disc, thus preventing the hyzer angle.

What I find to be funny is, if I'm understanding this correctly, this is actually a really problematic detail the Latitude 64 folks communicate incorrectly (much like the pulling back information they've been shaded on, but sneakily more damaging).

When discussing hyzer/anhyzer, they state you should rotate the disc like turning a key. Where if you turn the key clockwise, you end up hyzer (along with body tilt) and if you turn counter-clockwise, anhyzer. This minor information being communicated incorrectly has led to a TON of frustration for me on the course because it leads to very poorly controlled disc paths. I'm sure I'm not the only one. Oh well, you live and learn, and it's part of the journey. I could also be completely incorrect.

 

[Brychanus]

I wish it was all yeah duh!

Obs 1: not sure about balls of feet at all times? It does vary a bit by form and anatomy etc.

Obs 2: yes, very important. I think what screws a lot of people up is they misinterpret roughly this moment to be having a lot of pressure on both feet, but in fact most of it is already on the front foot:

Obs 3: yeah, this is what I see - so curious about what you meant in Obs 1. Part of the general wisdom is you want to be athletic on the feet with a bit of bias toward the ball of the foot. But usually you want the crush to transition into the heel from a safety/power/longevity perspective. Players like me tend to get too flat-footed while learning the postures and balance/need to get the toes and calves more into it. Some others have a hard time getting all the way into the heel in the "shift from behind."

Lat 64 advice - I vaguely remember that one.

When discussing hyzer/anhyzer, they state you should rotate the disc like turning a key. Where if you turn the key clockwise, you end up hyzer (along with body tilt) and if you turn counter-clockwise, anhyzer. This minor information being communicated incorrectly has led to a TON of frustration for me on the course because it leads to very poorly controlled disc paths. I'm sure I'm not the only one. Oh well, you live and learn, and it's part of the journey. I could also be completely incorrect.

I'd have to go look, but it occured to me that if you do this literally one direction seems harder on the joints. I did want to say that due to the gravity-based style of learning around here, it's usually easier to learn on a hyzer angle (which SW rightly points out is how a lot of pros actually throw "straight and flat" - it's just a more shallow hyzerflip). You can then learn to adjust your balance and posture for anhyzer.

 

[Hampejo]

Not sure I really understand the key analogy. Could you elaborate?

 

[Brychanus]

Not sure I really understand the key analogy. Could you elaborate?

Might have been referring to this one?

 

[TonLocVT]

Yeah, I was referring to that video, and I swear they reference it somewhere referring to hyzer throws, although I don't seem able to find it. Maybe the wrist movement is correct. Idk.

Regarding the double-dragon drill, I'm really liking it so far. It's pretty good for developing balance and muscle memory for both backhand and (I assume) forehand throws. It's also really good at helping me realize how not-flexible I am in current state.

I'm not there with it yet to post any videos, but once I'm stuck or close to having it, I'll go ahead and post one or two.

Maybe by the end of the weekend I'll have something worth sharing.

 

[TonLocVT]

So I took a stab at reverse stride with a wider and more staggered stance. It seems to have helped, although my rear foot seems to spin out a bit when my weight is over it. My need to focus a bit more on keeping my weight over my toes. The final (4th throw) seemed to avoid this.

I'm actually having a really good time with the double dragon drill. Something about finding a rhythm with the and symmetry in the motion in both the backhand and forehand movement is a fun challenge. It also looks really silly.

Corrections I've made so far:
1- I was planting and striding into an open stance, resulting in my walking forward in the drill. I started planting into a closed stance and this corrected it.
2- it felt more stable to allow my weight towards my heels, but I was losing power in the drill by doing so, so I worked on keeping my weight over my toes.
3- my arms were whipping around my body. I focused on keeping them taught.

It feel like my legs are kicking up high, but the video shows I have clearly more to go. I'm sure there's much more to work on I'm not seeing, too. All input and help is super appreciated!

 

[sidewinder22]

Now I see how long your legs are, lol.

Reverse stride looked better. Think you still end up too narrow and your chin is pushing your shoulder open.

DD, yeah it feels really good once you get the sequence going, you just look stiff and white boy rhythm.

 

[Brychanus]

For DD & rhythm - love how freely you're swinging, but you look a little slippy in those (long!) feet. You want to let yourself feel a little more grounded/braced by the feet each way.

I also think you are whipping the arms but not quite getting the lag/stretch through the upper body. You should be patient & wait for that little stretch feeling as your arm swings each way and then shift against it while letting yourself stay stretched/relaxed. Stretched muscles contract harder/faster.

This is one of the best ways to feel the stretch, can also practice swinging something heavy into the backswing and relax & let it stretch & coil you against the rear leg.

https://youtu.be/FWasFdvnGio?t=366

 

[TonLocVT]

Now I see how long your legs are, lol.

Reverse stride looked better. Think you still end up too narrow and your chin is pushing your shoulder open.

DD, yeah it feels really good once you get the sequence going, you just look stiff and white boy rhythm.

I had an aha moment with reverse stride. My main struggle was effortlessly getting my center of gravity over my back foot. It was to the point of actually getting hip discomfort. After watching your video excessively, I realized your hips actually point away from the target. Meanwhile, my hips were just barely rotating around.

It's obvious, but I was so focused on getting my weight over my back foot that I somehow completely forgot that the throw is a rotational move. I was literally focusing on the movement as a linear movement towards the rear. Visualizing the throw in 3 dimensions with the hips rotating and swooping backwards, with a forward lean, leads to an effortless weight shift towards the rear.

In the video below, I think I have it. I'm wondering if, I'm so focused on the backswing, that I'm now not shifting forward enough. Thoughts? Probably still planting too narrow.