GordEzo
Birdie Member
Dammit , looks like I picked a terrible time to get addicted to a new sport ! :doh:
PDGA True Amateurism Article
- Thread starter Casual Squishy
- Start date
archmage
Birdie Member
Well, if the entry fee only covered the cost of organizing the tournament, there wouldn't be anything left for the payout, would there?
But I do see your point, and while the current system is not quite to my preference, I can see why many people prefer it. And it's always hard to change the status quo.
To clarify what I meant---
You can charge $20 per player. If you have 10 players in a division, that's $200. You can pay it back to the top 5 on a sliding scale. The winner might get $40.
Or you can charge $50 per player. Same 10 players, $500 total. You can pay to top 5; the winner might get $100.
Very much oversimplified, of course; there's a lot more that goes into financials, including players packs. But I've done both, and my impression is that more players will come to the $50 setup, and fewer will complain about the meager payouts.
*
I should say that I see about 4 variations of Am payouts:
---High entry, mostly going to high prize payouts to the top 50%.
---High entry, mostly going to big players packs to everyone.
---High entry, a hybrid where part goes to players packs, the rest goes to prizes. This is the predominant model around here.
---Low entry, no players pack, trophy only.
The TD comes out about the same, in any of these.
My preference would be the last one, but personally I don't seen any evil in any of these formulas. TDs are free to try the first 3, probably the 4th too, and players free to vote with their entries.
You can charge $20 per player. If you have 10 players in a division, that's $200. You can pay it back to the top 5 on a sliding scale. The winner might get $40.
Or you can charge $50 per player. Same 10 players, $500 total. You can pay to top 5; the winner might get $100.
Very much oversimplified, of course; there's a lot more that goes into financials, including players packs. But I've done both, and my impression is that more players will come to the $50 setup, and fewer will complain about the meager payouts.
*
I should say that I see about 4 variations of Am payouts:
---High entry, mostly going to high prize payouts to the top 50%.
---High entry, mostly going to big players packs to everyone.
---High entry, a hybrid where part goes to players packs, the rest goes to prizes. This is the predominant model around here.
---Low entry, no players pack, trophy only.
The TD comes out about the same, in any of these.
My preference would be the last one, but personally I don't seen any evil in any of these formulas. TDs are free to try the first 3, probably the 4th too, and players free to vote with their entries.
I will add, for what it's worth, that I can think of 3 longstanding events in my area that were, at one time, low-entry, trophy-only events, but over time changed to the standard model. It's what most players want---or what those TDs think most players want.
I've also seen a few successful low-entry events, so it's not impossible. It would be nice if more TDs would try it, and give players a wider choice. Especially for events with larger MA3 & MA4 divisions.
I've also seen a few successful low-entry events, so it's not impossible. It would be nice if more TDs would try it, and give players a wider choice. Especially for events with larger MA3 & MA4 divisions.
Sadjo
* Ace Member *
My kids ran in a race this morning. Everyone that raced got a shirt. All kids that participated also got a participation medal. Only only child, per age division, got a trophy. My son Parker happened to win his age division and was very happy and excited about his win. My other son finished 2nd to last and was disappointed. That's the way it works.
As a long time TD, I've tried other payout options....one time running a Winner Takes All non sanctioned event. I promoed the event hard, had flyers everywhere and ended up with a dozen players. When I asked other why they didnt play, it was because no one wanted to invest, play well but not win and walk away with nothing. That was enough to decide to not do that again.
As a long time TD, I've tried other payout options....one time running a Winner Takes All non sanctioned event. I promoed the event hard, had flyers everywhere and ended up with a dozen players. When I asked other why they didnt play, it was because no one wanted to invest, play well but not win and walk away with nothing. That was enough to decide to not do that again.
Halcón
Free At Last
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I bet the winner was happy.
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Top 20% paid out 80%. Other 20% is fees and TDs choosing. Smaller value players packs requirements. Less investment for TD with greater return. Mediocrity is not rewarded (paying out to 40%).
Theres also the thought Peter Shrive brought up when running for Board last time. Splitting the PDGA into a For-Profit Pro and a Non-For-Profit Am. Ultimately AMs and Pros (and those aspiring) want different things. Keep the rules and community tied together though. A For-Profit would be able to build a Tour much easier.
Theres also the thought Peter Shrive brought up when running for Board last time. Splitting the PDGA into a For-Profit Pro and a Non-For-Profit Am. Ultimately AMs and Pros (and those aspiring) want different things. Keep the rules and community tied together though. A For-Profit would be able to build a Tour much easier.
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One thing is for sure, NCAA basketball is 100x better than the NBA.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
i agree 100% - imo the number of new players coming into the game is doing just fine, it is retaining the ones already there that is more of a problem for the ORG.
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QFT.
FrankieG
Newbie
In my opinion everyone who plays at a PDGA sanctioned event is a professional disc golfer. You are playing an event sanctioned by the governing body and by the governing bodies rules.
I think we are getting too hung up the terms and as some other people already pointed out the "payout" concept is self-delusional and disingenous. What we really have is the equivilant of having a PGA Tour and Nike Tour at the same course at the same time. I've felt for years we should just dump our the division names and just use rating breaks because what we are really talking about is skill level not whether or not you are a "professional" or "amateur".
As was also mentioned, the reality is, outside of college most sports are pro-am in that people compete seriously and expect some kind of reward other than a trophy/title and play for the joy of playing. Okay, some of these college players are hoping for a big pay day in the future but that is only in a few sports and most of that group is also delusional.
Another reality is the current model has endured because of the same reason, most things endure, M-O-N-E-Y. I'm not saying this is a bad thing though, that money usually gets ploughed back into the sport so it's hard to complain.
Right now the tournament sponsor makes most of their "profit" by purchasing prizes at cost and paying them out at retail. Players accept this for one of three reasons, they figure they get plastic they would buy anyway, they can sell the prizes and convert the to cash or they know they are helpng the local tournament sponsor raise money to put back in the sport. The first result was greatly helped by tournies going to the voucher payout system so players could "pick their own". The second choice was greatly enhanced by all the internet enabled outlets on the secondary market. For example this site itself profits off this by charging a fee to use the Marketplace Forum.
So now you want to remove the profit motive and go to a true amateur model. Does this mean entry fees will drop drastically? Let's just say a typical tourney makes $10 per am player as "profit" this would mean the entry fee could then be $10 plus the cost of the trophies. However, let's say the club makes $20 a player so the entry fee is now $30 (in theory) and all you get is a trophy, I'm not sure a lot of people will line up for that deal.
What I think is a more viable model is to make everyone pro and everyone is paid cash at PDGA event. First off we clear up the confusion of the general public when we say we are member of the Professional Disc Golf Association but you're an amateur player. Second, we put all the tournament finances on the up and up, everyone can see how much was paid in, paid out and none of this gray of cost/retail stuff. Then the clubs make their money by either taking a cut of the purse for the expense of running the tournament which I'm totally fine with and by selling merch. Just like Vegas, the casino has shops to take away the money you won. They know that the true end game is not what you leave the table with but what you leave the casino with or even in the larger picture what you leave Vegas with. And just like Vegas I think golfers are more willing to spend "house" money burning a whole in their pocket.
Tournament sponser would probably make the same they do now, all financials are completely transport and we stop this fantasy of "amateur" players. I will concede that new rec players are still the true amateurs and they and some others would be excited to win a trophy. Then we really say what we mean is "I want to play with other players I am competitive with and if I do well I want some kind of compensation". I also recommend paying 50% of the top tier to encourage people to move up from the middle tiers. I believe that a shallower payout with more players would result in the most successful players getting close to what they get now. Added cash could also be skewed to the top third to keep the payout equitable to current. This way players might be more willing to play against tougher competition.
One last disclaimer, a lot of my proposals were also mentioned in one form or another in other posts so I didn't want to seem I was trying to take all the credit for the above.
I say some of us get together, hash out some ideas and make a proposal to the board. If they won't ask us what we think we certainly have the right to tell them. As it has been said, when people say "they should do this" and "they should do that" well...WE are "they", we the members of the PDGA (full disclosure: I haven't renewed yet but have been a member since 1991) have the right to propose ideas to the rest of the membership.
I think we are getting too hung up the terms and as some other people already pointed out the "payout" concept is self-delusional and disingenous. What we really have is the equivilant of having a PGA Tour and Nike Tour at the same course at the same time. I've felt for years we should just dump our the division names and just use rating breaks because what we are really talking about is skill level not whether or not you are a "professional" or "amateur".
As was also mentioned, the reality is, outside of college most sports are pro-am in that people compete seriously and expect some kind of reward other than a trophy/title and play for the joy of playing. Okay, some of these college players are hoping for a big pay day in the future but that is only in a few sports and most of that group is also delusional.
Another reality is the current model has endured because of the same reason, most things endure, M-O-N-E-Y. I'm not saying this is a bad thing though, that money usually gets ploughed back into the sport so it's hard to complain.
Right now the tournament sponsor makes most of their "profit" by purchasing prizes at cost and paying them out at retail. Players accept this for one of three reasons, they figure they get plastic they would buy anyway, they can sell the prizes and convert the to cash or they know they are helpng the local tournament sponsor raise money to put back in the sport. The first result was greatly helped by tournies going to the voucher payout system so players could "pick their own". The second choice was greatly enhanced by all the internet enabled outlets on the secondary market. For example this site itself profits off this by charging a fee to use the Marketplace Forum.
So now you want to remove the profit motive and go to a true amateur model. Does this mean entry fees will drop drastically? Let's just say a typical tourney makes $10 per am player as "profit" this would mean the entry fee could then be $10 plus the cost of the trophies. However, let's say the club makes $20 a player so the entry fee is now $30 (in theory) and all you get is a trophy, I'm not sure a lot of people will line up for that deal.
What I think is a more viable model is to make everyone pro and everyone is paid cash at PDGA event. First off we clear up the confusion of the general public when we say we are member of the Professional Disc Golf Association but you're an amateur player. Second, we put all the tournament finances on the up and up, everyone can see how much was paid in, paid out and none of this gray of cost/retail stuff. Then the clubs make their money by either taking a cut of the purse for the expense of running the tournament which I'm totally fine with and by selling merch. Just like Vegas, the casino has shops to take away the money you won. They know that the true end game is not what you leave the table with but what you leave the casino with or even in the larger picture what you leave Vegas with. And just like Vegas I think golfers are more willing to spend "house" money burning a whole in their pocket.
Tournament sponser would probably make the same they do now, all financials are completely transport and we stop this fantasy of "amateur" players. I will concede that new rec players are still the true amateurs and they and some others would be excited to win a trophy. Then we really say what we mean is "I want to play with other players I am competitive with and if I do well I want some kind of compensation". I also recommend paying 50% of the top tier to encourage people to move up from the middle tiers. I believe that a shallower payout with more players would result in the most successful players getting close to what they get now. Added cash could also be skewed to the top third to keep the payout equitable to current. This way players might be more willing to play against tougher competition.
One last disclaimer, a lot of my proposals were also mentioned in one form or another in other posts so I didn't want to seem I was trying to take all the credit for the above.
I say some of us get together, hash out some ideas and make a proposal to the board. If they won't ask us what we think we certainly have the right to tell them. As it has been said, when people say "they should do this" and "they should do that" well...WE are "they", we the members of the PDGA (full disclosure: I haven't renewed yet but have been a member since 1991) have the right to propose ideas to the rest of the membership.
18Down
Par Member
27th in the World sounds GREAT to me!!!
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great that makes you the 26th loser.
Or, if there are 150 people in the division, a person with a winning record of 123-26. Beat 123, lost to 26. It's not a championship, but that kind of winning percentage is considered pretty good in most sports.
Excellent post.
I think it's more accurate to say we're all "semi-pros". We're receiving value for our play. Some are receiving more than their costs (including travel & lodging). Only a handful are professional, in the sense that they're making a living, and a poor one at that.
But the "Professional" and "Amateur" labels, no matter how inaccurate, do have at least three virtues.
1---They clearly delineate between our top divisions and lower divisions, in a way that even non-disc-golfers or newcomers can immediately understand.
2---They're good for the egos. Who doesn't want to be called a "Pro"?
3---They're short. "Pro" and "Am" are easy to write.
*
As for the low-entry, trophy-only model, I believe it would have succeeded, if it had been our model from the start. But the horse is out of the barn, and it would be much tougher now to wean players off the payout system.
But in 30 minutes I'm leaving for a charity event with a $25 entry, a tee-shirt to everyone and no prizes other than 1st-place trophies. It will fill, or nearly fill.
^^^ it's also labeled as a "charity event"
Casual Squishy
Par Member
Nice post frankie, nice response david
Aside from trying really hard to point out the whole myth of "Amateurism" being the spirit of sports those are the points people need to understand, reality vs "I've been hearing the whole ams play for nothing pros play for cash forever so it must be true..even though there's not one shred of proof to back it up.
(I bought into that whole argument for over 20 years myself until actual research straightened me out, which is why the whole PDGA statement worried me so much.. that that group of people have the same opinion without any evidence to back it up is disturbing, especially since that's supposed to be their job.)
Aside from trying really hard to point out the whole myth of "Amateurism" being the spirit of sports those are the points people need to understand, reality vs "I've been hearing the whole ams play for nothing pros play for cash forever so it must be true..even though there's not one shred of proof to back it up.
(I bought into that whole argument for over 20 years myself until actual research straightened me out, which is why the whole PDGA statement worried me so much.. that that group of people have the same opinion without any evidence to back it up is disturbing, especially since that's supposed to be their job.)
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