Good point. At the very least, the amount given to the charity ought to be announced....but in my experience, TDs are boasting about it anyway. I know we do.
-
Discover new ways to elevate your game with the updated DGCourseReview app!
It's entirely free and enhanced with features shaped by user feedback to ensure your best experience on the course. (App Store or Google Play)
Posting player entry fee breakdown: PDGA requirements?
- Thread starter ChrisWoj
- Start date
Good point. At the very least, the amount given to the charity ought to be announced....but in my experience, TDs are boasting about it anyway. I know we do.
Can you clarify this? I don't quite understand how transparency implies ownership. From my perspective, even as one who "owns" the event, you "serve" the players. They are not owners, but in their position as those being served - best practice would be to engage in simple efforts to maximize transparency for their sake.
I'm not sure I can clarify it. It strikes me as self-evident.
I'm serving the players by providing them a tournament to play in. They agree to the entry; I agree to give them the swag required or advertised. From an ownership perspective, how I manage that is my business. As non-owners, they shouldn't care how I do it -- only that I provide what I am supposed to.
I see neither value, nor entitlement, to transparency as to how I do it.
Why did I choose that particular porta-john, or the vendor, or what I paid them, or whether I worked it out in trade for something else, or have friend in the business...who cares? I do, because I'm providing it.
I'm serving the players by providing them a tournament to play in. They agree to the entry; I agree to give them the swag required or advertised. From an ownership perspective, how I manage that is my business. As non-owners, they shouldn't care how I do it -- only that I provide what I am supposed to.
I see neither value, nor entitlement, to transparency as to how I do it.
Why did I choose that particular porta-john, or the vendor, or what I paid them, or whether I worked it out in trade for something else, or have friend in the business...who cares? I do, because I'm providing it.
From my perspective - as non-owners they should care how you do it, but they are not obligated. As to value to you - what value is removed by you providing transparency? As I noted earlier - it takes a negligible amount of time, the cost to you is virtually pennies if that in terms of man-hours. As to it providing you with value - I don't see that as relevant, personally, and I consider it problematic that this conversation continues to go back to treating transparency as a matter of value. But if we must - as noted by jenb earlier, regarding charities:
It eliminates the opportunity for people to "assume the worst." It engenders good will. The fact that you may perceive diminishing returns on the existence of good-will, to me, seems irrelevant to the active effort to build good-will through the relative non-expense of providing maximum possible transparency.jenb said:
Last edited:
To my knowledge, tournaments in the Competition Endowment Program must donate at least 25% of entries to the charity. Other sanctioned tournaments must meet regular payout rules.
I've seen tournaments spell this out in various ways. We used to apply 50% of entry to the charity, have no players pack and small payouts with the remaining 50% (when people asked if there was a players pack, we'd answer, "We gave it to The Children's Heart Foundation'.)
Now we've gone trophy-only, so everything but the players pack and trophy costs go to the charity.
We used to run raffles and side-events to add to the donations, as well.
I've seen events that received donations for all players packs and trophies, and the entire entry fee went to the charity.
I do agree that for charity events, TDs should be clear about how much is going to the charity.
Your comments have made it pretty clear that a majority of your experience (if not all) is on the player side. That's fine, but there is a lot of experience in this thread sharing the view from the other side, and you just don't seem to want to listen. But, that's just kind of your way, isn't it?...
Easy as pie?
Fundamentally, I agree. Depending on the size of event, I can prepare a TD report in 10-30 minutes. But, I'm an executive with the financial acumen and resources to do so. I've volunteered for our Club almost 15 years (with breaks in between) and only a few of our board members had the experience or knowledge to understand and prepare such a report. The others contributed different elements to our Club because the numbers/reporting was just not their specialty.
Even though I disagree with virtually everything you say, I acknowledge you seem to have some level of advanced education. So, I expect you likely have the experience to understand such a report when provided. That said, you admitted to "rarely, if ever, check[ing] the financial sheet for the few TDs". Which circles back to the nit-pickers and effort vs impact evaluation.
BTW, it should be noted, a TD's job starts weeks or months before an event (depending on size). There is a ton of planning, logistics, communications, and preparation for most events - even more if the event is sanctioned, multiple days, provides food, or hosts vendors. No worries, volunteers invest their own time for the love of the game. Oh, let's not forget, these volunteers, who love & play the game, are sitting out to provide others the opportunity to play. We deal with the Woj's of the world who want to complain, question rationale, and pass judgement (WITHOUT HAVING APPROPRIATE CONTEXT TO DO SO), but we put on a happy face.
Because, even though we'd love "to tell the nitpickers who quibble with [y]our specific decisions to **** off", you can't do that. That's not how the world works (unless you're a stupid effing liberal). Telling people to F-off turns a small quibble into a bigger one and potentially introduces social media, where the litany of uninformed morons want to jump on the bandwagon. So, again, we put on the happy face and listen to your nitpicky comments. Then, the event is over and we have just a handful of hours to rest before getting up and going back to our real jobs.
We do not live in a perfect world, so (I think) your ideologies will continue to disappoint you relative to what is needed, valued, and reasonable. For perspective, in 2020, 2021, and 2022, our group hosted the three largest disc golf events in our state's history (232 participants, 409 participants, and 525 participants respectively). The PDGA reports were filed in a timely manner and we requested player feedback from the participants. Our focus was player experience, so the events were well done all around. As a result, none of the ~1,100 players asked for a (more detailed) financial report . So, again, your ideologies are only serving to create more work for the people already breaking their backs for this sport.
DISCLAIMERS
* (I think) Charity events should disclose the funds raised for the charity.
* (I think) Smaller events (<90) non-sanctioned events and leagues could easily have financials posted.
* I don't think MY way should be THE way, but we've had success following that model.
Yes, the majority of my experience is on the player side. I've run a few events that bordered on 100 players, and a few events that have exceeded 100 players, sanctioned and unsanctioned in both cases.
It sounds like, more than anything, with an organization like that it would be massively problematic in general to not have someone with the expertise that you fundamentally agree makes it "easy as pie" regardless of the presence of the sort of reporting I'm asking for.
Here's an idea: take your opinions and go **** yourself with them. I don't stand around at local tournaments and bitch at the TDs as you're insisting with your douchebaggery here. I'm in this thread asking for people to move forward and improve transparency as a matter of course. And you're conflating things by pretending I do things that I absolutely do not do in an effort to paint me as behaving at tournaments in a way that I absolutely do not. You are such a bag of ****.
Sounds like something easy to head off with financial reporting that is as transparent as possible. No need to tell someone to **** off, when you've got it all out there front-and-center. Instead you've gotta whine like a baby about how you're not able to tell the nit-pickers to **** off, and oh my that's just oh-so-hard for you in this day and age where all them-damn-libs are making your life so hard. Woe is you.
I don't think my ideologies will disappoint me. They haven't so far. I do think your assumptions will continue to land flat, though. You seem trapped by them.
As you noted above - provided your organization has someone with the sort of organizational experience you tout having: what I'm requesting is, as you agreed, "easy as pie." This isn't a straw that'd break the camels back, as much as it is you whining about doing basically minimal entries into a spreadsheet. Hell, it could be done with a sharpie and a blank sheet of paper if your handwriting is tidy.
Which doesn't mean it couldn't be done better.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
Wow.
He got the kind of response he wanted out of me. He wants to litter every response with personal digs because I said **** CAPITALISM then he can eat ****.
Dude, you're getting pretty aggressive. I know we're not friends and rarely agree, but I think you're taking this a bit far...
You might not stand around tournament central complaining, but someone (like you) typically is. And, it's almost always something nitpicky, like this.
The general issue I have with your whole sentiment is that you want a topic you feel passionately about to be globally adopted, yet you haven't even put in the work on the other side of the table to understand the relative importance of such an ask. You're getting completely bent out of shape about something that is of very little importance in the grand scheme of things. Which, to me, holds a direct parallel to players who complain about pulling a warm water out of a freshly restocked cooler, or a player that complains about getting their least favorite color/disc in a players pack.
Your comments illustrate such a lack of understanding and empathy for the situation, and are just dripping with so much entitlement it becomes difficult and frustrating to communicate in a way that you'll understand...
Again, I'll submit, in a perfect world, this is likely the way it would be done. But, we don't live in a perfect world. Disc golf is largely operated by volunteer organizations, which will always struggle to have the resources to provide completely accurate reporting. When I say "completely accurate" I mean, there are just too many variables to be completely accurate.
For Example:
Let's say (for argument) the event stipulates "all OB lines need to be painted". We need a total of 10 cans of paint to paint the course(s). Luckily, we had an event in March and have 4 cans of paint left over, and another volunteer had 2 cans in their garage. So, instead of buying 10 cans of paint at $7, we only bought 4.
Should we allocate $70 for paint since we needed 10 cans @ $7 or should we allocate $28 for the 4 cans of paint we bought to make up the difference? All of the paint was purchased by the Club at one time and used for the event. Was the paint also itemized in the March TD report? For what amount, the whole case, or just what was used at the time? It not exactly like we can amortize the paint and apply equally across all our events... Does it matter, it not, why bother preparing a report that will inevitably be inaccurate?
Again, just illustrating the nuances of reporting - it gets even more complicated when multiple volunteers are working on the event over a number of months. Some have club credit cards, others need be reimbursed, other just donate the cost of supplies, etc. There are so many exceptions, it would make a CPA's head spin and the CFO ask, why are we creating reports that can't possibly be accurate.
Disc golf is not corporate (yet). So, it is unreasonable to apply the same expectations of a publicly traded company to a volunteer organization. If this topic continues to fascinate you, my recommendation is to approach you Club and offer to create/prepare financial reports for their events. Assuming they take you up on the offer, I think you'll learn all the things we've been trying to tell you.
Last edited:
You made the decision to, from the first interaction you chose to have with me, start calling names and throwing around insults. The very first sentence. You get what you put in.
My experience with tournaments is a tournament director who made this a matter of course from the first event I ever played in. I never had to worry about it being a non-thing until I left my area. It is what I'm used to seeing. So, as far as I'm concerned, what you're calling nitpick I'm considering a simple matter of course.
I work on the other side of the table in another sector. I put in the work every day to know exactly what I'm talking about. A disc golf tournament is its own beast, but at the same time I'm very familiar with organizing a few hundred people for a few events per year and I'm very familiar with what it takes to do what I request. If anything I'm used to something more complicated - given I have to deal with multiple gatekeepers in an institution with over 5000 employees and a bureaucracy above and beyond what disc golf requires.
No, I'm getting bent out of shape over an ******* who decided the best way to come in and engage in the conversation with me was to make it personal from the first sentence he typed.
Transparent financials are on par with someone saying the water is too warm or the selection of colors isn't broad enough? Those are things you regard as on par with each other? Wow.
Make a decision. Go forward. You're intentionally making this sound way more difficult than it is for the sake of arguing against doing something that you've already acknowledged is "easy as pie" for someone like you. In reality this is pretty easy. Are you already reporting this in clubs financials? Direct players to that report, note when it will be coming out, and if possible you could have a line directing players to how to access the year before so they have an understanding of what equivalent costs were the year before. If money earmarked specifically for this event was used - identify that in reporting for this event as we've been discussing.
Receipts. Receipts. Receipts. If someone says they didn't get a receipt and they're donating time/purchases to the event - then you can just pile it under a shortlist that is as-complete-as-possible of donations with a note of thanks to the donating person.
As for what a CFO/CPA would ask - why? Because we do what we can to be as transparent as we can.
I've been in the role of treasurer for a disc golf club/organization for three years (2018-21), running fundraisers that topped out at just over 100 competitors. The most expansive reporting I did probably paled in comparison to what you've done, a charitable event that raised about $6000 for the family of a a club member who has since passed of complications associated with osteosarcoma. I also kept track of a variety of other fundraising/charitable events such as shirt/disc sales, member drives, etc. And I intend to get back into a role like that when I finish up dissertation soon. I think the experience will be as I expect.
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2009
- Messages
- 3,247
Lol at all the comments saying it's easy with good financial reporting (or something to that effect). Even in a corporate setting, where accurate and timely financials are essential and there is a team to close the books, there's nothing easy about it. I'll put in 30+ frantic hours, plus another 60 or so from my team over the next 2.5 days to close the books for the month. Then, we'll start on reporting.
The financials for a dg event should be way less complex, but I think there's basically never a team to support the TD with regard to reporting (maybe at majors/elite series?). You're asking a single volunteer (and probably not a finance professional) to get all that crap in order on top of all the other stuff they're not getting paid to do.
Chris, have you heard of not letting the desire for perfection get in the way of the good enough (poor paraphrase)?
The financials for a dg event should be way less complex, but I think there's basically never a team to support the TD with regard to reporting (maybe at majors/elite series?). You're asking a single volunteer (and probably not a finance professional) to get all that crap in order on top of all the other stuff they're not getting paid to do.
Chris, have you heard of not letting the desire for perfection get in the way of the good enough (poor paraphrase)?
dmoore1998
Eagle Member
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2021
- Messages
- 961
Regardless of whether it's a good idea, or it should be done...let's not pretend that some level of financial transparency is just outside the skillset of an adult human being who is competent enough to run a disc golf tournament. Let's also not pretend "they're not getting paid to do it". They ARE getting paid to do it the vast majority of the time. You may not think they get paid ENOUGH to do it...but they're getting paid...and lots of them are getting paid in ways you simply don't see (like golf shops running the tournament, and doing payouts for AMS with their own funny money guaranteeing their shop more sales and profit).
You might need a team to run an Elite Series event in terms of reporting (sponsors, entertainment, etc)...you don't need a team to run a random C-Tier (or at least not more of a team to provide a basic financial transparency, you will still need the team you need today to get the course ready, etc). Most C-Tier level events are not financially complex. If the financial complexity is too much for someone, they should absolutely NOT be running a disc golf tournament.
Again, it might simply be a poor idea to DO it...I just disagree that it's somehow beyond people running a disc golf tournament to do something so insanely simple.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
I could produce the financials of a run of the mill C tier off the top of my head in the time it takes to type them or write them down. I, as you note, simply feel it is a bad idea to do so in most cases.
On the contrary, I'm trying to illustrate the nuances that go into an ACCURATE report. Again, I reiterate, putting numbers into a spreadsheet is super easy. Ensuring the numbers are accurate and communicating the value is entirely different.
The paint scenario from my last post was simply to illustrate the absence of a universal "right" choice. The absence of accuracy thus removes any value said report would provide. So, the juice isn't worth the squeeze... Even if we were to create a G/L for Miscellaneous Tournament Expenses, that doesn't solve anything - the value of the report is to show where the money is going. We can categorize anything as Misc. and no one would know...
Again, preparing the report is easy - having accurate financial information from which to pull the information in the report is DIFFERENT. Kinda like how having an opinion is different from someone who has facts...
"Don't trip over good in pursuit of perfection."
My organization uses this mantra all the time. It can be frustrating, when you see value in "perfect" ideas, but you just can't jump from current state to ideal state. The other one we like to use is, "the quickest way to get where you want to go is slowly." ...another one that frustrates the creatives.
Again, I'm not sure the discussion is over the relative ease of preparing such a report, the challenge comes from providing accurate information in that report. Many times, these responsibilities fall to 1-2 people who also have competing priorities. So, (I have not seen a lot of interest) in aggregating the data for each event. If "the community" would be satisfied with the following line items
Registration
- PDGA fees (where applicable)
- PRO Payout
- AM Payout
- Player Packs (where applicable)
- Event Logistics
...that's an easy report. But, "event logistics" can mean anything. And, dumping all event expenses in that bucket will make it a large number and create questions (among my local community), which begs for a more granular approach, which circles back to the nuances previously discussed.
In some cases, trust is a big issue. That doesn't seem to be an issue around here anymore, but I can see some smaller communities that are having the same growing pains we had previously. The reality again is that the people who run Clubs and put on events are uncompensated volunteers. I think the community should have more trust and gratitude for their leaders, or oppose them in the next election. Change comes from being involved, not talking on the internet.
The thing is...
You seem to be indicating that you let the absence of "perfect" get in the way of "good," opting instead for not bothering.
zontar
Double Eagle Member
I can't speak as a DG tournament director, but having put on dozens of bicycle races in several disciplines, I see another side to how messy this can be. I never walked away with hundreds of dollars in my pocket, despite putting in a ridiculous amount of time on them. occasionally some great sponsorship and swag came into play, and I appreciated it. other times I paid money out of pocket to make it happen. (who knew that we'd need $80 worth of ice that weekend?) there are ALWAYS unpredictable things happening in events like this. a slick, no-hitches event actually makes us more willing to take on a messy, perhaps lose my shirt event next time around.
again, as tmxer said, what is the value? I competed in motorcycle trials events for years and didn't know anything about the expenses. I decided "is it worth it to me?" and afterwards analyzed it enough to decide for myself "would I do it again?" and yes, I admit to wanting to keep out people who just want to show up on event day and complain about where their entry fee is going (charity events aside).
again, as tmxer said, what is the value? I competed in motorcycle trials events for years and didn't know anything about the expenses. I decided "is it worth it to me?" and afterwards analyzed it enough to decide for myself "would I do it again?" and yes, I admit to wanting to keep out people who just want to show up on event day and complain about where their entry fee is going (charity events aside).
I guess I don't have the same reverence for "transparency", or feel it's some sort of magic elixer that makes everything better, which strikes me as sort of a Zuckerbergish notion. I've paid for all sorts of recreational activities, run by volunteers and not-for-profits and for-profits, and just don't see them being improved by seeing the balance sheet.
A charitable event should be transparent as to the charitable donation. A club-run event should be transparent to the club, or at least its board. But not everything, to everyone. That just gives the rabble a chance to rouse, while now improving things for anyone else -- least of all, the very people making those events happen.
But, hey, if my lack of transparency runs off players for whom the tournament and payouts weren't enough, I can live with that. And if some other TD wants to open his books, as a sort of added value, that's fine with me too.
A charitable event should be transparent as to the charitable donation. A club-run event should be transparent to the club, or at least its board. But not everything, to everyone. That just gives the rabble a chance to rouse, while now improving things for anyone else -- least of all, the very people making those events happen.
But, hey, if my lack of transparency runs off players for whom the tournament and payouts weren't enough, I can live with that. And if some other TD wants to open his books, as a sort of added value, that's fine with me too.
You've got me all wrong...
In 2017, I called for the same type of reporting discipline from our local board/TDs. My interest was determining our "break even" point on standard club events so we could set reasonable expectations for future events - how many participants do we need to break even on a standard event? What if we add food, more prizes, players packs, etc.? The devils is in the details, and I wanted to know the specifics.
I developed a TD Report template in Excel, and begged all TDs to use the template for each event they ran. The template was used to varying degrees, which was usually a reflection of the computer savvy of the user. So, I could either get comfortable with "good" or run every event myself, so I knew the financial reports were "perfect". I opted in favor of "good enough" because volunteer burnout is REAL and no one can run every event.
Our treasurer later determined the report to be too cumbersome for traditional TDs to use, so it fell by the wayside. This is the challenge with implementing "ideal state" when current state was "good enough" for the majority. In reality, once we focused on player experience, the questions about financials stopped. These days, every event participant knows the entry fee. All payouts are listed publicly (in sanctioned events). PDGA fees are set, and the player's packs can be roughly estimated if not outright calculated.
Since (it sounds like) you're asking for the detailed nuances of ice, paint, donations, etc. to be itemized, the aforementioned report isn't likely enough to satisfy your curiosity. So, again, there's no point for a TD/volunteer to do the extra work of preparing a semi-accurate TD report.
So, your request isn't so much unreasonable as it is unrealistic, which circles all the way back to you wanting to impose a global solution that is only "right for you" when it doesn't really fit the rest of the community.
As an aside, we felt financial reporting was an issue because of some residual trust issues in our community with previous officers. As our events grew, and exceeded expectations relative to player experience, the call for financial reporting disappeared.
Again, supporting biscoe's points that an event is about the overall experience. Once you start itemizing, you're nickel and diming everything and it just leads to a downward spiral.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
Where do the following fit in the spreadsheet?
Organized competition
Course that is event ready
Event info disseminated in advance and correct
Timely start and reasonable turnaround times between rounds
Payouts sent and td report prepped and sent in a timely fashion
TD and staff who are helpful and capable of answering questions correctly
I could go on all day about this stuff which is (to me) the stuff that actually matters about an event. Quibble all day long over how much the squirt of ketchup cost on the cheeseburger if you like but these are the things that make the event cheeseburger taste good and their absence on the spreadsheet merely reflects a lack of value placed on them- same as in the idiotic tour standards that define events almost solely by the amount of condiments on the burger. I choose not to devalue the truly important things by not itemizing the costs of the necessary but unimportant junk. IMO as long as you provide a tasty cheeseburger for the price the diners leave happy and no one cares what you paid for the pickles.
Organized competition
Course that is event ready
Event info disseminated in advance and correct
Timely start and reasonable turnaround times between rounds
Payouts sent and td report prepped and sent in a timely fashion
TD and staff who are helpful and capable of answering questions correctly
I could go on all day about this stuff which is (to me) the stuff that actually matters about an event. Quibble all day long over how much the squirt of ketchup cost on the cheeseburger if you like but these are the things that make the event cheeseburger taste good and their absence on the spreadsheet merely reflects a lack of value placed on them- same as in the idiotic tour standards that define events almost solely by the amount of condiments on the burger. I choose not to devalue the truly important things by not itemizing the costs of the necessary but unimportant junk. IMO as long as you provide a tasty cheeseburger for the price the diners leave happy and no one cares what you paid for the pickles.
