Relief -- how much?

[araytx]

Is either of these marks the correct one, or neither, or both? Yes the dark mound there are VERY active ants.

 

[araytx]

Pics

 

[chevis]

let's look at the rule 803.02: "A player may obtain relief from the following obstacles that are on or behind the lie: motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, people, or any item or area as designated by the Director. To obtain relief, the player may mark a new lie that is on the line of play, farther from the target, at the nearest point that provides relief."

nearest point that provides relief is pink.

 

[Horsman]

let's look at the rule 803.02: "A player may obtain relief from the following obstacles that are on or behind the lie: motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, people, or any item or area as designated by the Director. To obtain relief, the player may mark a new lie that is on the line of play, farther from the target, at the nearest point that provides relief."

nearest point that provides relief is pink.

Determining the nearest point is way to nuanced. I would argue that the pink lie isnt close enough.

 

[chevis]

Determining the nearest point is way to nuanced. I would argue that the pink lie isnt close enough.

nuanced, yes; if they are stinging ants & they still are crawling all over the mini (can't tell from pic), i would say it may not be far enough & white could be correct

 

[BillFleming]

I'm voting both....because I'm not there and the information isn't enough for me to make a ruling.

Chevis quoted the rule. The main point in that rule is "....nearest point that provides relief." The issue is stinging ants. I can't tell from the photo what spot provides relief from the stinging ants. If I was on the same card, I could look at the ground and determine where the nearest point is that provides relief. It might not be totally clear from the ants....but is it likely that the player won't get bit/stung by the ants during their stance/throw? The white marker appears to give relief....but there might be a better spot in between the two also. Or as a group, we might decide that the white one still doesn't give relief.

 

[elmexdela]

how do you know they are stinging

what if they are just regular ass ants

 

[KillerKoala777]

how do you know they are stinging

what if they are just regular ass ants

Well I don't want ass ants on me either!!

 

[chevis]

this does make me think about a few years ago when i hit a tree with a hornets nest in it & my lie/disc was being swarmed (i got stung 5 times getting my disc & just skipped the hole); the wasps were swarming in a large cloud, so in this case the nearest relief would have been like 50ft away. i'm wondering what kind of relief would be given if that tree was near the basket; i guess you could take relief on every missed putt; that could really put strokes on the card.

 

[cydisc]

how do you know they are stinging

If you know, you know.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[hiflyer]

I voted neither based on the technicality that neither mini is on the line of play, as it appears in the photo. They appear to be on a broken line, fractured at the thrown disc. If the white were shifted left a few inches, and the pink one or two, then I'd personally allow either, based on the initial reaction to / species of the ants.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

how do you know they are stinging

what if they are just regular ass ants

You ask elmex to stand there for 20 sec to test the waters.

If it's TX or FL, excellent chance they're Fire Ants. Pretty widespread from SE Texas, over to FL, and up through North Carolina.

 

[biscoe]

I voted neither based on the technicality that neither mini is on the line of play, as it appears in the photo. They appear to be on a broken line, fractured at the thrown disc. If the white were shifted left a few inches, and the pink one or two, then I'd personally allow either, based on the initial reaction to / species of the ants.

I agree with all of this. White appears a little farther back than needed but I wouldn't deny that spot to a player given it was on the LOP.

 

[txmxer]

I vote both—similar to Bill's point. Can't say for certain and being on the LOP, would be a requirement as mentioned above.

Regardless, you don't want to stand in an ant bed for any amount of time. It gets very unpleasant in short order.

 

[DavidSauls]

"Nearest point" is has always struck me as vague. If you haven't disturbed the ants, it can be fairly close. What about hornets? A rattlesnake? A grizzly bear?

But rarely does move back on the line of play afford much of an advantage, and in practice opponents usually permit the thrower to decide what's "near enough", yet safe.

 

[Jimb]

 

[BillFleming]

"Nearest point" is has always struck me as vague. If you haven't disturbed the ants, it can be fairly close. What about hornets? A rattlesnake? A grizzly bear?

But rarely does move back on the line of play afford much of an advantage, and in practice opponents usually permit the thrower to decide what's "near enough", yet safe.

It really comes down to "benefit goes to the player". Really, no one else can determine where 'safe enough' is at. Once it is determined to be a hazard (yes, those are ants and there's a good chance they are the biting kind)....it kind of becomes up to the player as to where safe enough is. Yeah, with ants, you can see pretty well where they are on the ground and can pick the nearest spot where they aren't. But I think you also have to consider the follow-through and make sure there's room to do that without landing in the ants. Bees/wasps/hornets are different as they fly and it can be more difficult to determine a safe distance. So I would stick with the "benefit goes to the player" and let them decide.

 

[robdeforge]

It really comes down to "benefit goes to the player". ...

"benefit goes to the player" does not come into play for this.

 

[araytx]

Determining the nearest point is way to nuanced. I would argue that the pink lie isnt close enough.

You may not be able to see unless you zoom in, but there is still dark dirt (part of the ant pile) up against the pink mini.

how do you know they are stinging

what if they are just regular ass ants

I was there. They are.

I voted neither based on the technicality that neither mini is on the line of play, as it appears in the photo. They appear to be on a broken line, fractured at the thrown disc. If the white were shifted left a few inches, and the pink one or two, then I'd personally allow either, based on the initial reaction to / species of the ants.

This is likely a issue of camera angle. As much as I tried, it was difficult to get all three to look like they were in a straight line in the pic. For the sake of argument let's assume all are on the LOP

You ask elmex to stand there for 20 sec to test the waters.

If it's TX or FL, excellent chance they're Fire Ants. Pretty widespread from SE Texas, over to FL, and up through North Carolina.

I'm from TX and this pic was taken in FL. That is exactly what they were.

Really? See above.

It really comes down to "benefit goes to the player". Really, no one else can determine where 'safe enough' is at. Once it is determined to be a hazard (yes, those are ants and there's a good chance they are the biting kind)....it kind of becomes up to the player as to where safe enough is. Yeah, with ants, you can see pretty well where they are on the ground and can pick the nearest spot where they aren't. But I think you also have to consider the follow-through and make sure there's room to do that without landing in the ants. Bees/wasps/hornets are different as they fly and it can be more difficult to determine a safe distance. So I would stick with the "benefit goes to the player" and let them decide.

Bill, #1 the answer to any of my questions will never be "benefit goes to the player," or "benefit of the doubt to the player." I used to call that phrase the most misapplied rule in disc golf. A good friend pointed out that it isn't even a rule.


Now along your thought process, no one seems to be bringing up the issue of the potential thrower wantinv enough relief to allow him to follow through without stepping in ants.

 

[biscoe]

Now along your thought process, no one seems to be bringing up the issue of the potential thrower wantinv enough relief to allow him to follow through without stepping in ants.

Another common misconception would be that players are entitled to a follow through or to their stance of choice..