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Now keep your left elbow more forward too. You really don't want your left arm to go behind your back, just want the rear shoulder to retract the scapula. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpp7ZFLHK90#t=8m45s
That was my next thing to work on. I've been reading HUB's blog and it has been very enlightening. Sometimes I seem to need to hear the same thing multiple ways to finally get it. He had this gem which helped me see exactly what you describe (also probably in your inside swing drill).
HyzerUniBomber said:
Guide that disc into the right pec while standing close enough to a wall that you can see if you're guiding it in a straight line. Another nice thing this drill does, is show you if you're over-opening and how you need to stand oriented to your release point, to pull the disc on a straight line.
The throwing arm shoulder has a very nasty habit of pulling your hand forward on the disc. Because your arm is bent at the elbow, while the disc is pulled into your chest, if you turn your shoulders to face a bit forward, your hand moves forward. Try it and watch in dismay as it happens. If your shoulders are starting to turn towards the target before the disc is extended out front, then you're over-opening.
I haven't been able to get out to practice but I had the idea for a drill that I thought might help me with this? I was thinking of putting a disc about 10' to the side of me when I throw and then trying to focus on that disc during my swing to help me not open early. What do you think?
I watched this Steve Rico video and really noticed where he was looking. He takes a small peek at where the disc is going but not until the disc has already left his hand.
Would suggest riding the bull with a stick in left hand. Your feet are spinning out before you really shift pressure. Watch how your right heel spins clockwise while planting moving further away from target. You want the heel to continue moving targetward while planting into it after toes plant. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxnhM5amro0#t=1m14s
I will give this a try today. Thanks again for all your help and suggestions. (and for all your past help to HUB who in turn wrote about it and now I'm benefiting from that as well)
Spent some time in the field this afternoon and didn't look at the video until after. It was back to some pretty bad form. So spent some a bunch of time in the backyard going over my throws and comparing to SW22's standstill. Was mainly focused on not letting my arm go past horizontal which seems to be one of my bigger mistakes.
And keep my off hand near my pocket.
Keep my head more down
This next one was a WTF Richard!
Trying to finish the weight shift before starting the swing
Feels like some good progress, interested in your feedback.
Realized while doing the hammer drill that it feels like I can get plenty of power without stepping, so decided to try that out in the field. Did a bunch of OLD and then tried to not take a step in the swing.
I'm tipping over all over the place and comparing to SW22 standstill there are a ton of things off. Going to keep working on it but just documenting the process since sometimes this feels like whack a mole.
^ You are still too rotational in the lower body and need to start landing more directly on the front leg. You injured your knee before likely because of some version of a rotational pattern, so you gotta get rid of that.
Try starting with a little more bend in the front leg and your head a little more hanging toward your toes. Hang your rear hip a little higher than your front hip in your setup. Don't put any weight on the rear foot.
Swing back, and think of dropping all of your weight abruptly directly into your plant leg and resist collapsing into the ground and swing forward.
If your leg resists the ground properly it protects the knee because it's transmitting the ground force back up the chain to lead your swing.
You might be struggling to do this because you or your body are trying to protect the knee you injured. In that case, I found bouncing a bit more up and down to get the leg to be a little springier to be effective. When you land, you never really want the leg bending like it would if you jump up or down because you will be directing the swing force forward, but this can sometimes help get your leg working like the unit you want. Make the drop very abrupt into an athletic leg and make the swing as slow as possible since you're not used to this.
Watch seabas22 OLD again and then me here where I'm exaggerating a couple things. Do you see how I am doing a buttwipe, but I'm never picking my plant foot heel up and then rotating to drop into it? And how my follow through is more like a coil than swinging forward around the brace? See how my feet are never flipping up into that rotational pattern you have back and forth, but more side to side?
Added some more pump and heave to get an easy 300' on one leg with max wt. Comets in the field a couple days later, no bull****. Seabas does a little better with his Bangers but I'm closer to getting what he's teaching.
^ You are still too rotational in the lower body and need to start landing more directly on the front leg. You injured your knee before likely because of some version of a rotational pattern, so you gotta get rid of that.
Try starting with a little more bend in the front leg and your head a little more hanging toward your toes. Hang your rear hip a little higher than your front hip in your setup. Don't put any weight on the rear foot.
Swing back, and think of dropping all of your weight abruptly directly into your plant leg and resist collapsing into the ground and swing forward.
If your leg resists the ground properly it protects the knee because it's transmitting the ground force back up the chain to lead your swing.
You might be struggling to do this because you or your body are trying to protect the knee you injured. In that case, I found bouncing a bit more up and down to get the leg to be a little springier to be effective. When you land, you never really want the leg bending like it would if you jump up or down because you will be directing the swing force forward, but this can sometimes help get your leg working like the unit you want. Make the drop very abrupt into an athletic leg and make the swing as slow as possible since you're not used to this.
Watch seabas22 OLD again and then me here where I'm exaggerating a couple things. Do you see how I am doing a buttwipe, but I'm never picking my plant foot heel up and then rotating to drop into it? And how my follow through is more like a coil than swinging forward around the brace? See how my feet are never flipping up into that rotational pattern you have back and forth, but more side to side?
Added some more pump and heave to get an easy 300' on one leg with max wt. Comets in the field a couple days later, no bull****. Seabas does a little better with his Bangers but I'm closer to getting what he's teaching.
Shoulders are way too flat or horizontal or even tilted over for anhyzer/roller. Left arm is out of control - keep your elbow closer to your hip - hand can go up/out, but elbow stays down/in.
In backswing your want your left shoulder rise up(and retract) for the right shoulder to hang from and swing back and forth underneath. Tilted Spiral.
Try starting with a little more bend in the front leg and your head a little more hanging toward your toes. Hang your rear hip a little higher than your front hip in your setup. Don't put any weight on the rear foot.
Swing back, and think of dropping all of your weight abruptly directly into your plant leg and resist collapsing into the ground and swing forward.
If your leg resists the ground properly it protects the knee because it's transmitting the ground force back up the chain to lead your swing.
Ok, I feel like I'm really bad at understanding these things and applying them, but I think maybe I'm seeing less lower body rotation? The idea of shifting quickly but swinging slowly really helped I think. I know I'm still swinging too fast and raising my are up too high, very hard for me to "not try". I took a couple quick videos in the back yard. There were a few swings the really came out fast (before filming) and it put a smile on my face.
Not sure if I'm bending the front knee enough or getting the rear hip higher, but I am trying.
A little improvement per what I mentioned above. Don't worry too much about the knee or hip exactly yet. Now try what SW22 said and see what happens when you put the two together.
You have to be hugging yourself doing these drills instead of opening up like Jesus. Your chin/left shoulder are in the way of your right shoulder swinging back behind you. You need to rotate further back away from target. These drills should pull your shoulders back as you shift forward, so left shoulder is closer to target than your right shoulder which should be pulled back behind your chin which should be dynamically stacked and leveraged against rear foot, so everything is wound up/cocked and ready to unwind if you let go and suddenly shift pressure to front foot/crush can.
Shoulders are way too flat or horizontal or even tilted over for anhyzer/roller. Left arm is out of control - keep your elbow closer to your hip - hand can go up/out, but elbow stays down/in.
In backswing your want your left shoulder rise up(and retract) for the right shoulder to hang from and swing back and forth underneath. Tilted Spiral.
One of the unexpected side effects of trying to figure out the disc golf backhand has been that my ball golf swing has improved a ton. I played a couple of weeks ago and it was amazing how much I've learned. Hit some greens, misses were almost all left instead of slicing right.
I don't know why it is so hard for me to translate that swing into disc golf, but I think it is slowly sinking in. I've even been working on a left handed golf swing to try to help me get it.
One of the unexpected side effects of trying to figure out the disc golf backhand has been that my ball golf swing has improved a ton. I played a couple of weeks ago and it was amazing how much I've learned. Hit some greens, misses were almost all left instead of slicing right.
I don't know why it is so hard for me to translate that swing into disc golf, but I think it is slowly sinking in. I've even been working on a left handed golf swing to try to help me get it.
In my experience there is a ton of crossover but in some ways it's a harder balance problem for the body to solve. Very different trying to swing forward leveraging a disc instead of a club while the feet and center of gravity move in a bigger range!
One of the unexpected side effects of trying to figure out the disc golf backhand has been that my ball golf swing has improved a ton. I played a couple of weeks ago and it was amazing how much I've learned. Hit some greens, misses were almost all left instead of slicing right.
I don't know why it is so hard for me to translate that swing into disc golf, but I think it is slowly sinking in. I've even been working on a left handed golf swing to try to help me get it.
You have to be hugging yourself doing these drills instead of opening up like Jesus. Your chin/left shoulder are in the way of your right shoulder swinging back behind you. You need to rotate further back away from target. These drills should pull your shoulders back as you shift forward, so left shoulder is closer to target than your right shoulder which should be pulled back behind your chin which should be dynamically stacked and leveraged against rear foot, so everything is wound up/cocked and ready to unwind if you let go and suddenly shift pressure to front foot/crush can.
Did some fieldwork today after drilling at home first and I think I'm hugging myself less?
Third throw was the best and U-Disc said it was ~305'. I think my off arm needs to be more stuck to my hip and my hips are rotated too much. Throws feel like they are requiring less effort which I think is good. Also my step got bigger again since I'm focused more on the reachback but it isn't as big as it was before.
You're hugging a little less, but I have a hunch based on your arm action that you have a deep habit to break. I will try to explain this thoroughly. Even when I understood it conceptually I had a hell of a time fixing it.
In your practice swing, you are attempting to maintain something like a 90-degree arm angle into the pocket (consciously or not). I have a couple things to say about that which might influence how you understand the "open up like Jesus" or "swing" idea and how it should work.
I don't have beef with the 90-degrees point per se, but I do think it can be insidious. What almost always seems to happen is that people get some form of a pull-like action with the shoulder opening rather than a swing-like action with the correct arm action resisting pocket collapse. The problem is that they develop some faulty sequencing issues in the arm or upstream in the body that are really hard to overcome. It also makes it tough to freewheel over the front leg and for some reason seems to make people rotate rather than drop into the front leg or crush the can.
I do sometimes think that the ~90-degree thing can work out, but it's when everything else is already functioning well. I've noticed that my arm angle naturally approaches 90-degrees in some forms, but my most natural power form is evolving a much wider arm angle due to my body type without focusing on it. I didn't start to find the powerful swings until I literally started swinging hammers or clubs or baseball bats wide in front of me, then gradually letting the rest of my form "shape" the path.
This makes a very big difference in your power and overall mechanics (and eventually consistency). There was easily 50' or more in my one leg drill accounted for by swinging and resisting pocket collapse instead of some version of a "maintain the pocket" or "90 degree" swing thought. It's because of how your whole body works to form the pocket and confrontation of the disc and your body, then your arm resisting the massive force. That's why my arm started to explode out from my body like a loaded spring or rubber band rather than a limp noodle or muscled limb. It's maintaining that stretch from the backswing, then getting additional momentary stretch as the force increases entering the pocket, and then suddenly releasing it all in a burst. Stretched muscles contract more forcefully.
Ezra (600', holy ****!) provides the 90-degree advice. But do you know what he does well? Forms a well-braced sequence and impeccable kinetic chain around it. So you can hope to build your form around 90-degrees and gamble that it will work out, or you could build your form around a freewheeling swing and discover what pocket angle emerges.
You might look at images like Mason Ford's practice routine and think "but isn't he maintaining the pocket?" It depends what you mean. Notice how his entire body is moving to precisely form the pocket. His form is more developed than mine, but I bet his arm feels like the exploding spring or rubber band when he swings, not a pull or something else.
I bet seabas22's does too when he does this:
And I'd also bet Ezra does as well.
So I suggest in your practice swing, you really do it just like this one first. Drop directly into your plant foot. Swing freely with a lot of momentum and a closed shoulder. Notice how your body reacts:
Then do exactly the same swing, but in your throwing grip. Based on how your chain is moving, I bet it forces your body to move differently to achieve the wide swing. You want your swing to be very much like dropping right into the plant leg resisting collapse, then swinging like opening up to Jesus. Let it start more on the wild side to break the old habit.
This will continue to make more and more sense to you if you journey down this path. Watch very closely at 4:43 from behind him - do you see how his whole body is swinging the arm wide? Just like the disc held vertically? Get that idea ino the practice swing.
Here's a thorough way of thinking about it from Clement that really influenced me:
I don't have beef with the 90-degrees point per se, but I do think it can be insidious. What almost always seems to happen is that people get some form of a pull-like action with the shoulder opening rather than a swing-like action with the correct arm action resisting pocket collapse. The problem is that they develop some faulty sequencing issues in the arm or upstream in the body that are really hard to overcome. It also makes it tough to freewheel over the front leg and for some reason seems to make people rotate rather than drop into the front leg or crush the can.
Thank you for the very detailed explanation. I think I will start by trying to repeat it in my own words to see if I'm understanding it.
Instead of pulling the disc to get the 90-degree power pocket I need to swing my arm using my body and then the power pocket angle will be a by-product not a goal?
And when you say use the wild swing for now, do you mean focus on just getting the arm to be swung and then worry about all the angles later on?
I'll see if I can give it a try this afternoon. Again, thanks for the feedback!
So I suggest in your practice swing, you really do it just like this one first. Drop directly into your plant foot. Swing freely with a lot of momentum and a closed shoulder. Notice how your body reacts:
Then do exactly the same swing, but in your throwing grip. Based on how your chain is moving, I bet it forces your body to move differently to achieve the wide swing. You want your swing to be very much like dropping right into the plant leg resisting collapse, then swinging like opening up to Jesus. Let it start more on the wild side to break the old habit.
This will continue to make more and more sense to you if you journey down this path. Watch very closely at 4:43 from behind him - do you see how his whole body is swinging the arm wide? Just like the disc held vertically? Get that idea ino the practice swing.
