People largely aren't calling the existing foot fault rule as it is, (which is why so many people throw a cow when they do get called). Changing the rule will just make a bigger cluster****.
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Size of the Lie
- Thread starter Dan Ensor
- Start date
Brodysseus
* Ace Member *
For us mere mortals, yeah it'd be a big difference.
For the pros though... 500-600' drive, 300-350' standstill, upshot, putt for birdie. It actually seems more in line with what "par" should be. An eagle on that hole becomes rare and due to 3 fantastic shots, as it should be. It would at least deflate some of these ridiculous -80s we see at worlds.
Disclaimer- Yes I realize that it is only the total throws that matter, not the relationship to par. But since our sport has embraced par, -72 looks ridiculous and definitely downplays the actual difficulty. And stand and deliver might negate some of the added distance from disc technology that threatens to make some holes and courses irrelevant due to length.
And the 100% of the time that the 60 cm leeway (30 cm left + 30 cm right) to either side of the LOP and the additional 30cm leeway behind the marker means you don't have to give ANY conscious thought or consideration to ensuring your supporting point(s) are on the lie.
Easy solution is to make the width the approximate width of a disc to give players an actual frame of reference to judge things instead of imaginary lines of immeasurable width. It's hilariously absurd that we have patio deck sized tees to start from but after that you need surveyor equipment and metaphysics knowledge to play by the book.
"You were left of the invisible line of play" becomes "You were left of the disc." How is that not better/simpler?
"You were left of the invisible line of play" becomes "You were left of the disc." How is that not better/simpler?
Changing the size of the lie won't eliminate the issue; there's a boundary area that will be a source of contention with rule calls.
A marker with a string? Hahahaha! That's bound to be rife with problems too.
"My string broke off mid round"
"His string is illegal! Looks like 13 inches!"
"You stepped on your mini! -No I didn't, that was string pulling the marker over!"
A marker with a string? Hahahaha! That's bound to be rife with problems too.
"My string broke off mid round"
"His string is illegal! Looks like 13 inches!"
"You stepped on your mini! -No I didn't, that was string pulling the marker over!"
Its not better/simpler because whatever width you choose, there's now two invisible lines of immeasurable width at each end which mark the difference between being behind your lie and off to the side of it. To me, its just simpler to find the diameter line on your mini or thrown disc and use that.
Star Shark
* Ace Member *
I went for Extend the Length. If you've got bigger feet and you place within the allotted 30cm, you're bound to hit the mini on your heel pivot. I think a bit of extra room on that front could help things.
AtomicDom
Bogey Member
Every argument on this forum is this episode of SP.
Non-issue.
802.04 doesn't require you have to have your entire supporting point on the lie at the time the disc is released, it only requires you to have a supporting point IN CONTACT WITH the lie:
Your heel could be 50 cm from your marker disc as long as any part of your supporting point is in contact the lie when the disc is released. Could be the first millimeter, could be the 299th mm, could be the 150th mm: as long as any part of your supporting point is in contact with the lie, it's not a foot fault.
Also, you're allowed to contact the marker after the disc is released:
so if you're pivoting with only your heel touching the ground, you're fine as long as the disc comes out before the front of your foot contacts the marker disc.
thirtydirtybirds
Double Eagle Member
Hey, being a tall guy the extra 6" can be a disadvantage as well depending on the window. Sometimes I can't quite go low enough!
I really don't think the rule needs to be changed. I don't compete really, but play very competitively and adhere to all the rules. The guys I play with call foot faults even in casual rounds if it's egregious. Just practice hitting that mark. If a player misses it, it's a fault. It happens.
For things like worlds though, I think the solution is actual officiating. I realize that takes personnel, and investment but it's the biggest title in the sport, and should be held to the highest standard of play and execution. That includes a standardized system of officiating. Just my $.02.
Kodachrome
* Ace Member *
Hmmmm.
Seems like a good way to get called on a foot fault. People will say you planted too far away.
Also, nobody pivots AFTER releasing their disc.
krupicka
Double Eagle Member
I would not change the size/shape of the lie, but I've posted this proposal before as an alternative to the existing rules, but different than stand and deliver:
Many already do this without injury.
Many already do this without injury.
rickles
Eagle Member
I say no change, places a premium on accuracy to avoid bad/unsafe lies in the first place.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
Stand and Deliver like Krupicka posted above BUT for pros only where it matters more to make stance calls.
jrawk
* Ace Member *
I'm okay with the way things are now. But I think Stand and Deliver on non-tee shots would make the game much more interesting and possibly change (or further enforce) good hole design.
Brodysseus
* Ace Member *
:thmbup:
Stand and Deliver would be so dumb. 900' hole. You hit a tree right off the fariway, have 850' left. Sorry but you gotta stand still and not attack the hole any more. Sucks to suck.
Brodysseus
* Ace Member *
Don't hit the tree?
It's way simpler, come one. The only way I'm finding the proper diameter of my disc/marker is if I fold my disc/marker in half and that's the tree's job, not mine. It's going "You're left/right of where I think the middle of your disc/marker is" to "You're left/right or your disc/marker." There's a reason why 1st and 3rd base doesn't have the foul line run up the middle of them.
Stand and Deliver would just make things more complicated IMO. I can see the controversy now of players abusing the rule by taking half-steps and run-ups in tall grass where you can't see their feet. And there's still the issue of people pivoting off of the LoP before they release the disc. Plus it just smacks of outlawing the dunk in basketball. Ok, maybe not the dunk but forcing everyone to take set shots.
The vagueness of the LoP is the problem. This is a problem if master's aged pros (with published technique guides nonetheless) screw it up constantly. That's not a "just practice more" issue.
