[Putters] Spit out prone putter plastics

[runningDoc]

old mach III and discraft chainstars have the most heartbreaking spit throughs.

I noticed it happens with fast spin putts and hyzer pitch putts. Something magically heartbreaking happens and you can have dead center pole hits and the disc will snake its way using the chains and spit though the other side.

I've putted using fast spin putts and have had grippy novas, mcpros, P-P2, DX P&A spit right though dead center hits on mach III and chainstars. it just happens.

sometimes it even happens on INNOVA discatchers (which in my experience are some of the best catching baskets).

watch brinster's heartbreaking spit outs/almost spit outs/rim outs on at the 2014 worlds:

 

[hugheshilton]

I wanted to add few words on the theories I mentioned in the first post. I've classified few different spit out mechanisms and some common factors for each:
1. Bounce back from the pole - Common with a faster put with flat or slightly nose up angle.
2. Throw back from the chains - Common with the combination of soft putter, slow put and flat/nose up angle.
3. Slip through the chains - Common for fast hyzer puts with slick plastic putters.
4. Slip out from the strong side - Common on anny put with slick putters and very little spin.
5. Spit out from weak side - Common for tackier putters and a lot of spin.

There could be more and not all of these theories are necessarily true. Just my interpretation of the way things work.

PS. I struggle most with the 1. and 2. with occasional 5. but the 5. are usually more user errors than clear spit outs.

I think you categorized these pretty well. If you suffer a lot from #1 and 2, then don't aim directly at the poll. If your putter is flat and you hit the center high and hard, you will often get a spit-out whereas hitting the chains pro-side you probably won't.

One other thing worth mentioning that I don't think anyone has talked about is whether your putt is rising or sinking when it hits the chains. You might not even be putting that hard, but if your putt is still on the rise and it hits the center somewhat high you can easily get a spit out from either the chains of the poll. I've seen Nikko get spit-outs from almost point-blank range multiple times because he threw the disc up into the top of the chains and it just spit straight back out. The putter was rising and slightly nose-up which is a bad combination for spit-outs. I find that as long as my putter is sinking as it hits the chains, even a lot of poor, am-side putts will stay in.

 

[runningDoc]

Here's some fuel for the fire:

How many past World Champions have used soft putters?

How many used KC Pro or comparable plastic putters?

doss puts with stiff/pro plastic challengers right? so with Climo and McBeth you got a great case that stiff putters are world champs favorites.

also not to be watched for the faint hearted:

Compiled spit outs from Steve Brinster's 2014 worlds (man if you computed the strokes from his spit outs you realize how close he was to that top card in the end).


https://youtu.be/XuDbL6ciARA?t=169
https://youtu.be/XuDbL6ciARA?t=394 (not a spit out but still)
https://youtu.be/XuDbL6ciARA?t=634 (aaaaaallllmoooossst)
https://youtu.be/XuDbL6ciARA?t=945
https://youtu.be/XuDbL6ciARA?t=1580

 

[pauldst]

This. I always laugh when someone says they like soft putters because they stick better. The actual difference in the bounceback of different plastics is negligible. If you're struggling with spit-outs, it's not the plastic's fault, it's yours.

If I throw a stack of putters at a basket, and, after going through the stack a dozen times, some plastics have fewer spit-outs than others, with multiple molds in various plastics, some molds in multiple plastics, and by the same thrower, then it would seem that the plastic type can make a difference.

For me, DGA's Signature Line "Plastic" has the fewest number of spit-outs, followed by R-Pro. Sometimes SLP will ride the chains and get thrown back out, which I have very rarely seen with other plastics, but it still has fewer spit-outs overall. It occasionally also hits the basket rim and flops in, when every other plastic that I have used would bounce off.

At a tourney recently I was watching a card mate putt. He was using an Axiom putter--I don't remember which--and had no problems with spit-outs, depite his putts being rather forceful. I noticed that his putter was hitting the chains nose-up. I was thinking that the larger horizontal profile was helpful to the chains catching the disc?

 

[KidClutch]

I wanted to add few words on the theories I mentioned in the first post. I've classified few different spit out mechanisms and some common factors for each:
1. Bounce back from the pole - Common with a faster put with flat or slightly nose up angle.
2. Throw back from the chains - Common with the combination of soft putter, slow put and flat/nose up angle.
3. Slip through the chains - Common for fast hyzer puts with slick plastic putters.
4. Slip out from the strong side - Common on anny put with slick putters and very little spin.
5. Spit out from weak side - Common for tackier putters and a lot of spin.

There could be more and not all of these theories are necessarily true. Just my interpretation of the way things work.

PS. I struggle most with the 1. and 2. with occasional 5. but the 5. are usually more user errors than clear spit outs.

I think it's hard to say what can fix your problem without seeing your putt. Like every golfer I've struggled with spit outs or cut throughs a lot. But I really noticed it when I switched over to push putting. Now that I've switched back to spin putting, I putt at a medium speed with a slight nose up release and honestly I don't have any issues with spit outs anymore. The last time I played with my brother he even noticed I wasn't having my two a round spits I had became known for

And as far as plastic, I really don't think it matters. I think it's more mental then anything. I've always used KC aviars but once my issues got noticeable you bet I switched up my plastic base, but I noticed pretty quick those same issues were happening. At that point I realized it was my angle, release, speed etc. playing factors to my putting struggle.

keep practicing your mechanics and like anything else to help you out, find a local pro or pros that can help you out noticing little things you might be doing effecting your angle of release

 

[Snaques]

And as far as plastic, I really don't think it matters. I think it's more mental then anything. I've always used KC aviars but once my issues got noticeable you bet I switched up my plastic base, but I noticed pretty quick those same issues were happening. At that point I realized it was my angle, release, speed etc. playing factors to my putting struggle.

This is the kind of experience I was waiting to hear from. Personally I didn't want to start playing around with different putters / plastics just because of spit outs, so I didn't have a good feel of how much it would effect things. It's kinda relieving to hear that someone has gone through that hassle so that I don't have to. :thmbup:

In the future, I will try to memorize better the type of put I made when I get a spit out. Maybe in long term I can find some common attribute that I can change in the stroke / flight to reduce the frequency of those spit outs.

 

[COLODISCR]

I have a really bad habit of buying new plastic to try out any time I'm at a store with discs and I've purchased more putter molds in various plastics than anything else. The only thing I've seen plastic make a difference on us my release as it seems better with a firm plastic but have never seen much difference with spit outs.

Spit outs have way more to do with your technique than the plastic. The upper third of the target always is the worst spot to hit in my experience. Try this next time you have access to a target to see why - Use a finger or two to push on one of the top 4-5 links and try to push it to the pole. Then push on a link lower down near level to thr top of the basket. The upper links will feel heavier.

That is why high putts seem to have hit a solid wall and cab bounce out on you even when hit dead center. It's even worse when you hit off center. Other issues with release and mechanics can magnify issues and make the sweet spot seem even smaller.

 

[cooter]

There are other world champs than those two.

I was curious to see what the others have used.

I did mention plastics that are similar to KC Pro as evidence towards using stiff putters.

Yeah I think just about every World Champ uses a stiff putter. Between Climo and McBeth they have a pretty big chunk of the wins. Barry Schultz uses KC Pro Aviars. I think Avery Jenkins used them as well when he won. Cam Todd used a stiff Challenger and Nate Doss as well. I'm not sure what Emac used as a putter when he won but I'm betting it was a firm plastic blend. Also one of the best putters in the world and possible future World Champ (Ricky Wysocki) uses Zero Hard putters.

There's definitely a deadening effect when stiff plastic hits the chains. If the first row of chains doesn't stop the putter it slides into the second row and stops. Really though I would say most of it is just technique and practice. Some putters might be prone to more spit outs than others but they're all gonna stick if you hit the sweet spot.

 

[brutalbrutus]

Spit outs just happen sometimes. I've seen them with softs, hard and everything in between. Lots of factors at play, wind, nose angle, angle of attack(hitting the gap in between chains),spin, speed, high/low, right/left, rust. One thing I've been noticing on some of the older/rusty baskets around here, is that the discs are hanging on the chain for a split second, just long enough for the outer chains to rebound and swing the disc back over the rim. This is especially bad in a head wind.

One of my pet peeves are these cross chain baskets trying to eliminate this problem. The difference between someone who can let it slide and someone who gets royally pissed(I am the latter) when this happens, could be the difference between winning and losing. Suck it up and try again...

 

[Streets]

Yeah I think just about every World Champ uses a stiff putter. Between Climo and McBeth they have a pretty big chunk of the wins. Barry Schultz uses KC Pro Aviars. I think Avery Jenkins used them as well when he won. Cam Todd used a stiff Challenger and Nate Doss as well. I'm not sure what Emac used as a putter when he won but I'm betting it was a firm plastic blend. Also one of the best putters in the world and possible future World Champ (Ricky Wysocki) uses Zero Hard putters.

There's definitely a deadening effect when stiff plastic hits the chains. If the first row of chains doesn't stop the putter it slides into the second row and stops. Really though I would say most of it is just technique and practice. Some putters might be prone to more spit outs than others but they're all gonna stick if you hit the sweet spot.

Feldberg used 10x Aviars, I'm pretty sure, which allegedly are some of the stiffest KC aviars run.

 

[SD86]

Feldberg used 10x Aviars, I'm pretty sure, which allegedly are some of the stiffest KC aviars run.

I'd be very curious to know how many Team Innova pros are asking for McPro Aviars for their own bags....

 

[Quinum]

also not to be watched for the faint hearted:

Compiled spit outs from Steve Brinster's 2014 worlds (man if you computed the strokes from his spit outs you realize how close he was to that top card in the end).


https://youtu.be/XuDbL6ciARA?t=169
https://youtu.be/XuDbL6ciARA?t=394 (not a spit out but still)
https://youtu.be/XuDbL6ciARA?t=634 (aaaaaallllmoooossst)
https://youtu.be/XuDbL6ciARA?t=945
https://youtu.be/XuDbL6ciARA?t=1580

Man...those are BRUTAL! He seemed to handle them really well. I would have totally lost my cool.

 

[wolfmandragon]

Let me throw my 2 cents in.

Yes, plastic type matters on spit outs. I am not the best putter, but it is a rare day that i have a spit out. Form is more important than plastic, but I have tested this with base line vs prem plastic. The baseline putters 'bounce' out on me.

The only baseline putter that works for me is the soft Atom. One can see the soft core absorb the impact while the stiff rim keeps the disc from flexing. Its the flexing, and following rebound, that causes the flat, center hit putts to bounce back.

I also use a hard Pure for uphill putts, and get similar results, while a baseline Roach or baseline jOKERI will bounce out(but not a pren jOKERI)
I lob the discs in flat, so I dont expect my results to equal other styles of putting.

 

[DanJon]

I thought Brinster putted with Omega Supersofts?

 

[Snap-it]

I thought Brinster putted with Omega Supersofts?

Nope, Classic Aviars...at least when that video footage was taken.